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Highly Sensitive Humans Podcast
The Highly Sensitive Humans Podcast offers insight into the world of the Highly Sensitive Person, and helps those who identify with the traits of high sensitivity to feel more empowered and resilient without denying their authentic gifts.
Highly Sensitive Humans Podcast
How to Achieve Life-Work Balance for Highly Sensitive People with Beatriz Pupo
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In this episode I speak to Beatriz Pupo who is a global leader at S&P Global working in Brazil. As a director within the Commodity Insights arm of the company, she is responsible for managing a team and advising some of the world’s largest companies and governments on the future of biofuels in the energy transition. She is also a Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion board member at WINS – S&P Global's largest people resource group – focused on gender equality. Amongst other things, within this position, she has been passionate about creating safe spaces for discussions that challenge the status quo and address taboo topics such as menstrual awareness.
Beatriz is focused on bringing her personal experience with mental health and neurodiversity as a Latin, highly sensitive person, to tackle stigmas and inspire a more holistic, conscious approach to well-being and life-work balance in corporations. She has pioneered a full-time work-from-home reality since 2009 and meditation has been a vital part of her life for over a decade now.
LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/beatrizpupo/
Instagram accounts: @beatrizfpupo and @sensitive_coach
Survey on high sensitivity and high performance: https://www.bcs.org/articles-opinion-and-research/identify-and-unleash-your-talent/
Quote: ‘Don’t see how far darkness spreads; just light up your inner lamp’ by his holiness Shree Shivkrupanand Swamiji
Book: The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know Is Possible by Charles Eisenstein
About the Host: Jules De Vitto is a transpersonal coach, trainer and experienced educator for Highly Sensitive People. She helps those who identify with the traits of high sensitivity to navigate emotional overwhelm, step into their authentic power and align with their true purpose in life. She is a published author and wrote one of a series of books on Resilience, Navigating Loss in a time of Crisis. Her research has also been published in the Transpersonal Coaching Psychology Journal and Journal of Consciousness, Spirituality, and Transpersonal Psychology.
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The Highly Sensitive Human Academy™ - join our 3-month professional training: coaching Highly Sensitive People
I'm your host, Joseph DeVito, and you're listening to the Highly Sensitive Human Podcast, a show that offers an insight into the world of the highly sensitive person. It helps those who identify with the traits of high sensitivity to feel more empowered and resilient without denying their authentic is so thank you very much, Jules.
SPEAKER_02I'm very happy to be here today. Um I appreciate the invitation and the opportunity to participate and share a little bit more of my story and my experience with highly sensitive people in the corporate environment and the life work balance that we are all seeking as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so welcome. Thank you so much for being here. And I'm really looking forward to the conversation today. So, yeah, as you've alluded to already, today we're really focusing on the work-life balance for highly sensitive people. Um, and you know, many highly sensitive people are working in the corporate environment. It's very fast-paced. So, can you tell us a bit more about your journey with this work-life balance and being a highly sensitive person?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, of course. So, um, first of all, I do like to call it life work instead of work-life because I really think it shifts the mindset. We usually need to think about this. Because then when you're when we are talking about the corporate environment, we are usually talking about people who are um supposed to, uh you know, very fast-paced, uh, high performance sustained that has to be sustained, um, you know, high achievers, that type of thing. Um, so really, if you still put work first, it might be difficult for the people that are already in this environment to really see how they need to shift that learn that lenses um right to what that means um to them.
SPEAKER_01I really love that reframe. I think that's really valuable. And I haven't heard anyone actually um shift the wording in that way. So I really appreciate that. And I'm wondering then, yeah, could you say a bit more about what that means for you and how you've experienced that as a highly sensitive person?
SPEAKER_02Sure. So for me, it really was around the pandemic, which where I think a lot of people had to revisit how they were dealing with life in general. And with work for me, so I've always been a remote worker before this was really a reality, right? So I was living in-between stories, uh, you know, that that didn't exist at for a long time. So I I burned out a lot during that uh virtual experience. I didn't know at the time, now it has a name, right? But at the time uh I didn't know. So it for me it really helped, for example, to have that time of not being in a physical space as much, you know, and with frequent interactions and stimuli, um, you know, like noisy places, brighted lights, uh, that type of thing. Um but at the same time, it really showed me how interrelational we are all are, and how constructing relationships, etc., is really a strong point for highly highly sensitive people. It can be quite a challenge as well, depending on the environment you're in, if it's full of conflict or or toxic dynamics, right? That can take it all its toll to anyone, but for to highly sensitive people in general, even more so. So I've I've just learned and led you know all of these experiences as something that was propelling me to learn more about myself, and that's kind of the approach I took with this whole life work balance, and of course, reading on a lot of the research that is already there and how uh well-being and mental health are here to stay as a priority for companies that want to retain talent, right?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Yeah, and I'm curious what you have observed then in in terms of some of the biggest struggles for highly sensitive people. Um, so yeah, I appreciate what you were saying about sensitive people actually are we are very uh relational. We do need connection relationships with others, and we thrive often when we are connecting and have those deep relationships. But what do you see as some of the biggest struggles that HSPs can face?
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Jules. That's a very interesting question. Um, so I think again, the the the overwhelm as well that those relationships can bring, right? Um, so uh uh HSPs are very empathetic, usual, usually, right? Which sometimes tend to absorb people's emotions without even realizing. I know this was a big problem for me personally, for example, in family and in the corporate space, but until I realized it, I didn't even know it was happening. Right. So that's something to take care of, and particularly for people who are in the same physical space. Um, I do hear this very often. There is a group here in Brazil where people are on WhatsApp and they just share their experiences, right? As highly sensitive people, it's a very nice community and they're just sharing. And a lot of people struggle with this, right? With this how the dynamics of relationship can be very good in the sense that we can connect bridges, we can think creatively, uh, we see innovation, collaboration where others might not see. But if we are stuck in toxic dynamics, let's say a place with too much gossip or you know uh abuse, there's a lot of abuse, right? And we know um it happens, but it can be very difficult. So uh overthinking it's also something highly sensitive people need to look out for um in terms of just being this fast-paced environment where you're expected to perform, right, all of the time. So that can that can lead to anxiety, of course.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And I'm curious then, do you think that the COVID pandemic and this shift to online working was a relief for many highly sensitive people? Or do you think it brought other challenges for HSPs? What's your experience of that?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think it's anything in life, it it probably brought both. But I think in the majority of cases, and then I'm I'm speaking as my experience as a leader uh overseeing all and interacting with other people who might not be highly sensitive, right? I don't know, but they they might not, who are also, let's call it, relieved. I mean, I think it's unquestionable that having the option at least, right, to have a few days working from home is it it brings quality of life, right? Uh you're empowering that employee to do the work they are trusted with when they can, right, to the best of their abilities. Um and and again, just in terms of an overload of stimulation from you know noisy places. So if we imagine open spaces, right, for highly sensitive people where everyone's talking and you have your headphones, etc., that can lead to overstimulation very quickly. And even more so if you don't know that this is a trigger for you, right? So self-awareness overall is just so so so key and so important for highly sensitive people.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And I can definitely relate to now that I work online and I'm self-employed, uh, it brings a lot of freedom for me as a highly sensitive person. And I know you and I were just talking about the importance of taking breaks. I find that I can most of the time choose my schedule and choose to have those breaks and choose to slow down and manage my environment. So consider things like noise and lighting, and that's really important for all highly sensitive people. And so, how do you feel that is that can be applied to someone who doesn't have that autonomy or ability to work from home? What do you imagine might be helpful for them in a corporate environment where it's very busy and as you described, there's a lot of noise and overstimulation?
SPEAKER_02So I was I was I was reflecting a lot right before Carl, obviously, on all of these topics and on my experience too. So I, you know, I maybe speak from a privileged place where I've been working for a company for a long time, a company that does um support and aims for you know being recognized for being uh preoccupied with mental health and mental care and well-being and inclusion, diversity, belonging, all of that. Right. So I I know I speak from maybe a cut of this whole story, like you said. Some people don't have that uh ability, but I think sometimes we need to go back to the simple and the basic. So even just reminding yourself or putting a time on your calendar that you need a break between meetings, for example, and just maybe realizing, you know, this day I cannot take back to back to meetings. I mean, I would imagine that this you need to also have some type of safety in where you work to at least have the basic minimum, right? So for breaks, uh, or like having headsets if it's a noisy place. So just kind of shielding yourself the best of your ability from what their environment might be, you know, bringing you in terms of overstimulation. Um if possible, if you have a good relationship with your teammates and you know you're highly sensitive, you can talk about that when you need a moment, or you know, you don't you're not obliged to let's say go to lunch every day with your colleagues just because this is something everyone does. Um so thinking simply, what what's near you that you have the power and the ability to change, and then the intentionality of why you're doing that and how you're doing that, and why why it matters to you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And it feels to me that it's really important for leaders in any organization to have an awareness of high sensitivity and for their employees who might be highly sensitive, for them to be able to identify who these people are. So, how might a leader um recognize a highly sensitive person in the workplace? What would they look out for?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's that's a very interesting question, um, Jules, because I think a lot of the time it's very hard to tell because you in general we mask in, right? When we are studying about diversity, equity, and inclusion, there's a lot of you know, the concept of bothering, and you know, you're just hiding your authentic self, all of that. So it happens a lot with highly sensitive people. So it might be a little difficult to spot it as you know, like the over stimulation, all of that. That might not be easy. But what is a constant characteristic amongst highly sensitive people that I think it tends to um be expressed, even if we are not intentionally expressing it, is our empathy, our awareness, and our connection. So that usually is a good strong indicator that you might have a highly highly sensitive person in your team, right? Um if this person can really uh hold multiple visions, for example, or opinions and kind of navigate uncertainty, that's also usually a good indicator. And I actually saw that there is research actually that shows uh it was a research done, I can pull up the name of the organization um here later for those who are listening. But it speaks to those who tested high in sensitivity, how they were also the high performances, performers within the teams. So if you have a consistent uh high performer who's you know very ethical and with high levels of empathy, that's probably a sign that you have a highly sensitive person working in your team.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a really interesting correlation, isn't it? And it feels really important then for many leaders to recognize that it's highly likely that a high performer is highly sensitive. Um, because I wanted to ask you what you thought the value was in being able to identify highly sensitive people in in the workplace. So, yeah, could you speak a bit to that? What the importance is of actually being able to identify and label HSPs?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, of course. So, first is the awareness, right? That this this well, I mean, I think with my work within this whole space of I've been trying to kind of blend in what I'm learning within mental health, well-being, and diversity, equity and inclusion, right? Because I think as highly sensitive people and you know, uh being more neurodiverse or looking at the world from a different lens put us into that category of where awareness first is really key. So the more people we have, you know, being vocal about this and speaking about this, which is what we are doing, it it helps. So I think that's that's really the first step. And then what leaders need to do is probably what they need to do for every human being, which is just respecting and getting to know that person and seeing how they can help them uh belong. Uh, I recently saw this video that a good colleague of mine sent, and and she's like a very good friend too, and she it showed um Google's DNI officer talking about how before it was a culture of fitting in, right? Which is where highly sensitive people, for example, would mask themselves to fit in, right? But how now the new generation, and that this is why this is important for leaders, the new generation wants to add in. They don't want to fit in. So it's where us as highly sensitive people, where can we add in, right?
SPEAKER_01And how would you define adding in? What does that mean for highly sensitive people rather than fitting in? And I really resonate with that, and I think it's really important to not just be fitting into an organization. So, what would adding in mean or look like for a HSP?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think we add in because we are conscientious, right? Very, you know, self-aware of our environment, of the subtle cues. You know, we could be, for example, incredible negotiators, right? Uh, I can imagine maybe like diplomatic type of people, for example, right? And where they can read the room, read the cues and all of that, for example. Um, you have very creative employees too, right? A lot of HSPs uh artists can identify themselves, they're HSPs. There are so many beautiful things if you go online and you look at that, for example. Um, the high levels of empathy and just being a very good team player um and team worker and collaborating, that's also you know fantastic. And um, I did want to bring research tools that I actually learned from your course, right? When I was doing the coaching program for highly sensitive people, which is the vintage sensitive aspect, which is quite interesting. Uh, and I'm sure you can speak much more about it than I can, but it just shows that HSPs thrive, uh, can thrive more when they have positive experiences when compared to non-HSPs. And I think that's fantastic. So it's very exciting to see more and more research coming into this field.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And that really brings me to my next point in terms of identifying what HSPs really need in the work environment. So I know you have explored a lot about the intersection between mental health, inclusion, and well-being. And as you're speaking to, yeah, HSP, who is in a nourishing and supportive environment, is more likely to thrive and be successful than a non-HSP. And so that is the vantage sensitivity. And so, what do you feel HSPs really need in order to be able to thrive in the workplace?
SPEAKER_02That's that's a very good question. I think it we could sum it up to honoring its needs. So recognizing first that the needs are different, right? We cannot do as many hours maybe that that your colleague does, and that's fine. You cannot do all the cocktails that in that particular event for that week that you're traveling, everyone is expecting you to attend, and that's okay too. Um, so again, it could be very simple, but just uh looking out for signs over over stimulation and working on that, for example, it's fantastic. And it shifts the mindset that you can align right the actions that you need to take in your work environment with how you feel, because a lot of the times you're as highly sensitive people, we know when we are going over our limits most of the times, even if we don't know exactly what that means. Um so again, going back to the not fitting in, right? But adding in and ignoring that boundaries and breaking away from what you think is needed for you to succeed, reframing all of that is very helpful.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And for a HSP, do you think there is space in the corporate world to honour their needs and to set these boundaries or say no to things? I'm curious from your experience because I have this perception that it's quite difficult for a highly sensitive person to actually slow down and honor their needs in this way because the mainstream workforce is always telling us that we need to be doing more, we need to be moving faster, we need to be working long hours, and it's not okay to slow down and take breaks. So, what what's your perspective on that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, definitely it's I don't think it's for now anyway, easy. So, I again I I do understand I speak from a maybe a privileged cut, right? From this leadership position where I have this vision and I'm supported that this is important. Um but but again, it is here to stay, the worry with mental health and well-being is a priority for companies. So it's really also for agency who might not be able to do that or have that space to all uh not learning how to rest only, let's say, for example, when you are um away from work. So okay, you don't have the time to take your breaks or um you know refrain from overstimulation or saying no to a meeting. Okay, so what can I do? I think we can also outside of our lives look at who we are because a lot of the times too in these spaces, you have your identity uh pretty much immanaged to your profession or your career, right? And that can be very overwhelming and is actually linked to burnout. So for HSPs outside of work, then that cannot do any of that, if they can learn not only to rest but to recharge somehow, that's very important. And that's very personal. It could be anything for anyone, it could be as simple as maybe you know just going to the beach, looking at the ocean, listening to a music, meditating, or anything like that. But that in itself, I think already helps to find that balance uh with life and work. Um and also, if I may, Jose, that just made me think of something too. That the understanding that when we speak life and work, balance, it is not really static. It is, it is in it is a movement, right? So sometimes it might mean prioritizing something, a life aspect, but at other times it might mean prioritizing something for work. So also not getting too attached that you should be feeling at balance. It is a concept that actually, you know, we should inspire ourselves from nature. There's always movements, there's always cycles, um, right? So it involves. Also, that uh that knowledge that I think as HSPs, it it's really powerful. We have this deep intuition. We usually are very connected to spirituality too, right? So, what lights you up that can also help in terms of achieving life work balance.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, beautiful. So it's really about each individual honoring their needs and not just resting, but recharging and asking who they are outside of the work context and giving space to that area and those parts of their life. Um, I think that's really important and really, really valuable. And you're speaking to the fact that that can look different for everyone, right? So there isn't a manual, there isn't a script to say this is how you do it. Um, but I'm curious, what would your go-to tools or techniques be? So if you could generalize and say, okay, as a HSP, if you're struggling with burnout or overwhelm, what would you recommend for them to do?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's a very good question, uh Jules, because I think it's really important for for anyone, really, not only for HSPs, right? So burnout is everywhere. We know it's it's it's crucial for us to to address this. So um I think for me, what really changed my journey, let's put it this way, um, was when I started meditating and cultivating like a daily practice for meditation. It doesn't have to has to look like that for anyone, but I think in general, uh mindful techniques will help HSPs to learn to be less reactive, right? To respond from another inner place. So that's usually something I like to explore, and I would encourage highly sensitive people to explore. Um anything related, of course, to self-awareness, you know, it might be therapy or it might be other avenues for different people, but again, getting to know that core self. And I think with that, with the core, is just knowing your values. I remember when I first did a coaching session that touched upon values, and I had never thought about that. And he was just so powerful. He reframed my perspective really on how I was approaching um a lot of things. Um so again, it's it's it's how we are affected by different pieces of things um from different sides. And one thing that really helps me is, for example, also, and and I think you you speak a lot about this in your coaching program, Jules, which is just approaching yourself with curiosity too than from a place of um self-judgment, for example. Um and then yeah, sorry, sorry, Jules, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01No, please go on, carry on.
SPEAKER_02No, I was just gonna say, and also I cannot not bring nature, I think, because it's just a general global kind of consensus on how it can just really powerfully um balance us and brings us this sense of being more than just us, right? And when we look, you look at a beautiful sky or you look at the ocean. Um, so so that that also really helps.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. So having that space for perspective, gaining new perspective on situations and space for self-reflection is really important too. And then you mentioned clarifying values and just really knowing what's important to you. And I think for anyone struggling with overwhelm or burnout, yeah, asking those questions, what is really important to me, what is my purpose is going to help to reframe some of those struggles or even help that person to set the boundaries they might need to set in a particular context. So I think that's all really, really powerful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I and I think when we speak of purpose, really, uh Joe's just I wanted to quickly mention that sometimes we have this big idea, but purpose needs to be, or that it needs to be attached to what you're doing as a work, but that's not really the case. It can be so much broader and it can mean so many different things for so many people, right? So keeping that open mind uh with life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I I definitely resonate with that. Um, and often we're living our purpose, you know, without even realizing it. As you said, it doesn't have to be this huge vision that is in the future. Often it's just about coming back to the present moment and realizing that it's already here because we're living in alignment with those values. So I'm wondering if there's any practical tips or advice you would give to business leaders who are wanting to support HSPs in the workplace, those who are struggling with their well-being or with burnout. Is there anything you would recommend to them?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think first of all, managers and leaders in general, in anything, but in big corporations more so, there is this power where they can shift the culture of that place. They can really, you know, again, it doesn't become a people have to fit into this culture, but rather we adapt the culture to how it makes sense for us as a company and employees and et cetera. So there is this power in these managers and leaders' hands. And when they recognize the importance of well-being and they start to role model that as well, because a lot of the times the burned out people are going to be the managers and the leaders too. So, how can you help others if you're not helping yourself first? Right. So just recognizing the importance of that. Um, and really, I think the most important advice from where I sit, from what I see that I'm I'm trying to do as a leader is to role model. Right. So if I role model, you can be vulnerable. Yes, you can have difficult conversations, you cannot feel well at a certain particular time, you might not feel prepared, you might be stressed. I mean, all of those things we usually don't talk about because we feel we are might, you know, might be being too vulnerable, let's say, for a work environment. But that's really how you're gonna build that prioritizing your well-being. So I can give you a very practical advice, for example. So as a leader, if you don't take holidays, uh, and I know this may sound very basic, but this happens a lot in the corporate space. If you're not taking holidays, what signals are you sending to your employees about being able to rest?
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_02And being able to take care of yourself. Um, if you cannot feel comfortable declining a meeting or saying, you know, this is not so urgent, please go, you know, take care of yourself. This can wait a day. I mean, you leaders really have to walk the talk, I would say, particularly in the big companies that might already have policies in place, but where the trickle-down effect has not happened yet. So it's really into the hands of these managers and leaders to show the way and and say, you know, this is important and we are going to support it.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And I think it's so simple but so profound in terms of modeling that for other people. And, you know, as a coach, as a as a trainer for other coaches, I also uh really value modeling that vulnerability for other people. So I'm just wondering, I like to ask this question for all um listeners and everyone that comes onto my podcast. So, do you have a favorite quote or book or something that you'd like to share with the listeners today?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Um, I have Jules. So I've been reading more on all these topics, right, that I've been exploring. But one of the books that I read, it was last year, and I read it in English. So for those of you listening in, you know, you might have picked that up, but uh, you know, my accent, um, English is not my first language. But the book is very profound, and I'm sure many highly sensitive people, if they dive into it, they will find beautiful pearls of wisdom, and is the most beautiful uh world our hearts know possible from Charles uh Eisentin. You might have heard about it. It's been around for a while, but the book really focused on what we I think we are doing, and you are doing with your work also, Jules, pioneering in the space for highly sensitive people, which is creating a collective shift to conscious and reframing our lenses of how we see the world and what's possible really when we um come from this very different place than what we are used to, uh, which is the separation story, as he calls it in the book, um, and into the new story, which is about interconnectedness, uh, interrelationships, uh, and all of that. So I highly recommend that um the listeners, if they are interested, check it out. If the book is too dense, you know, maybe start with a few essays or a few quotes, but definitely good sources of inspiration there. Um and I as for a quote, I have this very it's one that accompanies me for a long time now since I met um a meditation practice, as I mentioned. And it says don't see how far the darkness spreads, just light your inner lamp. And I think that summarizes our power individually as uh highly sensitive people to really you know shift how we see and belong into the world, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I I hope you can appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's really beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing. And I think a lot of highly sensitive people will resonate with that perspective of being a light to shine into the world. And also for the book recommendation. Um, I will share the link to that in the show notes so everyone can access that. So thank you so much. And we've explored so much today. I feel so many little nuggets of information that, as I said earlier, are very simple in a way, but so profound when you put them into action. And I'm just wondering, is there anything else you want to share or mention about this topic of life work balance?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I guess it could be just experiment, experiment what works for you, really, because there's so much, right, in terms of information, knowledge, techniques, etc., etc. But it's really by seeing how you feel when you do certain practices or when you uh are able to create certain limits or work on your communication or whatever that may be, but just giving you yourself the chance to experiment uh what's going to be working for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Like we said earlier, there isn't a manual or a particular checklist that we can follow. We really need to come into attunement with ourselves and ask, yeah, what do we need as an individual and how can we speak up and um communicate those needs with our managers or leaders in the workplace? So thank you so much for everything you have shared today. It's been really, really insightful and valuable.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Jules. I appreciate it. I mean, there's just so much, much more we could talk about. I'm very passionate about this topic, and it's just a lot of new research coming up. So if anyone is interested to know more, discuss more, um, I would be happy to share. So thank you again for the opportunity and the space. I really again feel privileged to be able to use my voice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you. And is there anywhere that listeners can go in particular to stay in touch with you, to find out more? Um, yeah, where can the listeners find more about you?
SPEAKER_02Sure. So I am more active in LinkedIn, so you can check my profile. There's you know a bit in there from my corporate role as well, uh, but also on the coaching, uh, high sensitivity, well-being research, uh, etc. So that's usually my go-to. But I just started on Instagram and I'll leave the handle here with you as well. So hopefully I'll start to share some more in there as well.
SPEAKER_01Fantastic. Thank you so much. And again, I'll put the links in the show notes for everyone to reach easily. So thank you again for your time today.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Jules. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for joining me today on Highly Sensitive Humans. Make sure to visit my website, highly sensitivehumans.com, where I also offer one-to-one coaching for highly sensitive people, and a members area with monthly community meetings. You can also visit the Highly Sensitive Human Academy to find out more about upcoming online trainings, including a three-month professional training on how to coach highly sensitive people, and a three month professional training on working with highly sensitive children. And if you found value in the show today, I'd really appreciate donating. And you can also support the show by making a donation. Your donations are what enable the production of the podcast.