An Alternative Perspective on Addiction, Recovery & The Highly Sensitive Person

In today’s episode, we explore the relationship between addiction and the highly sensitive person. Drawing on Marina’s journey and path of recovery and her training in compassionate inquiry with Dr Gabor Mate, we explore the definition of addiction outside of the mainstream medical model, and the subtle ways addiction can show up in our lives. 

We also discuss the 8-step recovery program, co-founded by Dr, Valerie Mason-John and Dr Paramabandhu Groves which uses Buddhist teachings to overcome addiction and which Marina is also trained in.  

Finally, we explore and share our relationship with the wounded healer, and how it is our own wounds, trauma and challenges that propelled us on our healing path, and which eventually led us to coach, counsel and guide others on their journey of healing, recovery and transformation.

About Marina...

Marina specializes in alternative approaches to health, spirituality, and life in general. Originally from Yugoslavia, Marina has a BA in Psychology from the University of Novi Sad, Serbia, and her MA in Communications is from the University of Hawaii, Honolulu. She trained in conflict resolution and mediation, yoga and meditation, and Ayurveda. She is a certified Mindfulness-Based Addiction Recovery coach and currently teaches this 8-week course online. Marina is also a certified practitioner of the Compassionate Inquiry approach, developed by Dr Gabor Mate. Her work is closely connected to her personal path of recovery from addiction. 

Links

1. Marina's pages:  https://marinakolaric.com,
2. Marina's Profile: https://compassionateinquiry.com/directory/marina-kolaric/             
3. Dr Gabor Mate page: https://drgabormate.com                                                                                      
4. ESR page: https://www.valeriemason-john.com/eight-step-recovery/  

More about your host, Jules De Vitto...

Jules De Vitto is a Transpersonal Coach who helps Highly Sensitive People navigate anxiety, stress, step into their authentic power and align with their true purpose in life. She lived in Asia for eleven years before moving to London and integrates Eastern practices and modern-day mindfulness into her work. She has a degree in Psychology, an MA in Education and an MSc in Transpersonal Psychology, Consciousness and Spirituality. She’s a Meditation teacher on Insight Timer and a  published author through Changemaker Books and John Hunt Publishers. She wrote Resilience: Navigating Loss in a Time of Crisis to help people through the Covid-19 Pandemic available here.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/highly.sensitive.humans/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/highlysensitivehumans

Join the 8-week course, 'Step into your Authentic Power as a Highly Sensitive Person' starts October 4th 2021, and is limited to 20 people! Join now!

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome, I'm your host, Jules Davito, and you're listening to the Highly Sensitive Human Podcast, the show that offers an insight into the world of the highly sensitive person and helps those who identify with the traits of high sensitivity to feel more empowered and resilient without denying their authentic gifts. So Marina specializes in alternative approaches to health and spirituality. She is originally from Yugoslavia and she spent her life traveling the globe, earning various certificates and collecting valuable life experiences. So Marina has a BA in psychology from the University of Novi Sad, Serbia, and her MA in Communications is from the University of Hawaii, Honolulu. She trained in conflict resolution and mediation, yoga and meditation, and Ayurveda. She is a certified mindfulness-based addiction recovery coach, and she currently teaches this eight-week course online. Marina is also a certified practitioner of compassionate inquiry developed by Dr. Gabor Mate, who is a world-renowned expert in developmental childhood trauma and its impact on physical and mental health. So her work is closely connected to her personal path of recovery and mental health and addiction. And throughout one of her dear teachers, she's learned that we teach others what we need to learn. And so her hope is to continue growing as well as teaching and assisting others in their personal transformation. So today we're going to be looking at the connection and the relationship between the highly sensitive person and those who suffer from addiction. And we're going to actually try and define what we mean by addiction. We'll talk and draw upon Gabo Mate's work, who is a huge inspiration of mine and Marina's as well. And we're going to be also talking about the Compassionate Inquiry, the Eight-Week Mindfulness-Based Recovery Program, and also something which both Marina and I relate to, which is this idea and this concept of the wounded healer, and how we who step into this healing profession are working to guide others on their journey of healing and transformation, have often been through our own struggles, trauma, and challenges, and that really is what enables us to step into the role that we do today. So, really excited about this episode and all of the topics that we're going to cover. So I hope you enjoy it. I am now updating and uploading the podcast onto YouTube so you can access it on my YouTube channel Highly Sensitive Humans. So, welcome Marina, and thank you so much for being on the episode today.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Hi, Jules, and thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

So I just want to start with obviously this podcast is all about highly sensitive people. And today I really want to ask you about uh your journey with being highly sensitive and how this relates to addiction and your journey with addiction and recovery and perhaps how these two relate for you.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Well, the thing is, since I was since I was very young, and uh my memory goes somewhere in around the age of six, um I remember experiencing very, very often um mood swings, um, a lot of emotional sensitivity and impulsiveness in my reactions. I also remember uh quite quite um um clearly that I had a really complex uh inner life, and um I'm I'm the only child, and I remember often I would have these imaginations, these stories in my head, and um I would talk to myself when I played and and really have it had a really vivid scenarios uh in my mind. Um since I was young, also I was very much aware and really cautious around these uh uh subtleties of other people that are that are around me, um especially their emotions and and moods. And then I I um quite early started feeling pretty different and and really trying hard not to be, like trying really hard to kind of blend in, right? And um that was often followed um with messages that I was receiving, primarily from my parents, but also from the whole environment, which was um why are you so sensitive? Why are you so moody? What is what is wrong with you right now, et cetera. So there was always always why are you like that? Dot dot dot. And so now, today, right, I then I didn't understand what is going on, but today I actually understand how uh society, I mean, starting with my own family, right, is really not allowing for these difficult feelings and sensitivities. There simply kind of seemed that there's no space for that. Um, and especially, you know, I'm talking about um 80s in in Serbia or Yugoslavia where I grew up. So that was like a like a very much a childhood. And then um, in terms of the addiction, um, I started drinking not um uh heavily, but I started drinking very, very, very early, like a super early teen years. And and soon enough I stopped noticing for some reason these sensitivities. And I didn't understand what happened at that moment. I just knew that there was a moment that something clicked and that I I actually felt connected, that I felt like I belonged, that I'm not strange or weird in any way. And I now understand that that was actually uh uh uh uh self-medicating, you know, that was actually uh uh changing who I really am. And all of a sudden I was outgoing and fun and uh not really that much conscientious, you know, and kind of resilient. And uh um I felt these extreme feelings of excitement and and and joy. And, you know, considering that my drug of choice was uh alcohol that usually went with uh with cocaine, I would actually, especially when mixed these two together, would actually give these intense sensations and extreme feelings. Um so that was the period of you know early childhood experience, but then the drinking period. And then the third part is when I got sober, and I remember how this completely changed for me because all of a sudden I bounced back towards you know being overwhelmed by outside things and a lot of people, being um anxious pretty much when I have a lot of things going on. Um I felt like this huge need to withdraw during busy days, to be alone, to do a lot of self-care, and um, and in order to actually just feel feel balanced. And I was again I was confused actually. I forgot all about my my uh childhood. And and at the at that time I was considering that not okay still. And that's when I started actually, quite recently, I mean, looking into and more in-depth and researching about uh a high sense, highly sensitive um uh person. And and um it's it's it became super clear to me that I absolutely am a highly sensitive person who found her way through this trait and quality, um through a help actually of uh of drugs and alcohol, like uh like many other addicts. So that's kind of where my uh combination of these two uh go.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Thank you so much for sharing about your journey. And so it's so interesting because you're describing how when you were very young you had this um sense of feeling different and you know being told that you were too sensitive and trying really hard not to be. And then you mentioned that it was really through um alcohol that you were able to find almost this sense of belonging, and and you stopped noticing your sensitivity, and um it was through self-medicating that you found a way to almost yeah, be okay with the that sensitivity, and then as you became sober again, you notice yourself bouncing back and feeling that anxiety and feeling overwhelmed. So, yeah, I just really appreciate you um sharing how it's through the use of alcohol, um, and you mentioned cocaine as well, that you were able to try and handle your sensitivity. And I feel this is such a common story for so many people who do have these traits of sensitivity. And um, with that, I'm wondering if we could just take a moment to really define um what it means to have an addiction, let's say, because we're we're talking about the relationship here today between sensitivity and addiction. Um, and I know that you and I have spoken about this before, and we have spoken about Gabor Mate, who is a huge inspiration of mine, as I know he is yours, and we'll come to that more in more detail in a moment. So could you yeah, perhaps define from your understanding what we mean by addiction and how that might play out?

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Absolutely, and thank you for mentioning um Dr. Gabor Mate. I um I had a privilege to study his uh compassionate inquiry program and um become one of the practitioners. And uh to touch on um my understanding of addiction before I joined uh his program, you know, before I started following him and his work, I was only familiar with something that in this field we call a medical model of addiction, you know. And and in this model, uh addiction is basically generally seen as a disease for which there's really no known cure. And most of it it's um ascribed to genetics, mostly most often. And so I remember when I joined the 12-step program that um one thing that right away kind of hit me was that this approach, uh this medical approach, kind of didn't really resonate with resonate with me. Um I I always uh saw it pretty pessimistic, um kind of negative, and in a way too too definitive, too, too limiting for a person. But at the time, I I simply didn't have a different definition, right? And um, as soon as I started uh studying with uh with Dr. Mate, uh we we obviously touched upon uh you know relationship between childhood trauma and addiction and what is the addiction. And he says that addiction is this very complex psychophysical, so it is psycho psychological and it's also physical process that manifests in any behavior. Now, that can be a substance-related behavior, or it can be any other behavior that we often call process addictions, for example, shopping, gambling, uh, sex, uh, internet, work, right? So substance or processes. But the point is that in both uh situations, in both uh circumstances, a person craves this certain behavior, finds some kind of a pleasure or relief, temporary pleasure or relief in that behavior. And as much as the person suffers negative consequences or as a result of it, uh he or she is unable to stop. And by this definition, this can apply to any behavior. So any behavior, substance related or not, that we continue doing and turning towards because it gives us a temporary pleasure or relief, basically. And this right, I mean, this opens up so many other uh possibilities, um and also allows in a way that, hey, maybe you know it can be um modified. Maybe I have a certain influence and a certain part in choosing that behavior and engaging in that behavior, and with that, that there is a possibility of of change, right? Um, another really important thing that I've learned through him is that addictions they can give us a sense of control, empowerment, they can bring us more in touch with ourselves, relieve stress, offer uh escape from pain. And all of these are natural human needs. And as as I was saying, you know, the connection with addiction and highly sensitive uh person, it's definitely that addiction can be a way to self-medicate and to feel more normal, quote unquote, more in peace, more relaxed, more connected. Um and I see that as I work with people and as I work with clients and through through my own personal life, I see that you know, the more sensitive people are, the more hurt they are. And the more hurt they are, the more they want to escape from that pain, the more they want to relieve. And addiction, like many other uh adaptive behaviors, is a symptom of something much deeper that's underneath. There's it's just uh is just the adaptation to something difficult. And the question is, okay, so what's the dad that is difficult underneath? And so that's that's based on um that's based on Dr. Mate, that whole idea.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Yeah, absolutely. Again, I just feel so inspired by what you just shared and his work and this idea of us moving away from this medical model of addiction being a disease. And it's the same with high sensitivity. You know, I still often get asked, oh, is being highly sensitive an illness, is it a disease? And you know, the answer is absolutely not. Um but you know, you mentioned um this idea of you know it being related to trauma. I believe that, you know, sensitivity is also there's a lot of overlap with those people, those of us who have experienced traumatic experiences, and then you know, that is also highly related to, as you said, um, this need to escape or or numb or or find some kind of sense of control in terms of what we've been through and what we're experiencing. Um and uh also another thing you mentioned, which I'd like like to just explore a little bit, is you know, the subtleties of uh what addiction looks like. And again, I know you and I have spoken about this before in terms of um, you know, often when we think about addiction, yeah, we think about those major uh substance addictions or process addictions, like you said, um, in terms of alcohol, um, drugs, sex, and those addictions being quite explicit in a way, um, if that's the right word to use. Um but I'm interested in how these addictions can play out in more subtle ways and how a lot of highly sensitive people may be able to relate to these addictive behaviors, but not necessarily be able to put a label or a name to it. And I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on that.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

It's very interesting because um uh I I do believe, especially in the in um when we talk about process addictions or let's just call them right not uh other behavioral kind of addictions, um, they can be they can be really subtle. I mean, we can talk about somebody who, for example, um because of the feeling of overwhelmment, for example, that is a common feeling in highly sensitive people, particularly if we don't take care of ourselves, um uh, we can, for example, turn towards emotional eating. And, you know, uh, we don't have to have a severe problem that that categorizes or diagnoses as uh eating eating disorders, right? Uh uh, but we can we can be somebody who finds nourishment and and peace and and a sense of uh uh uh you know groundedness and calming if every time that we are overwhelmed or for some reason feel triggered, we turn into towards the food. Um and so the the thing is, I have um I remember that uh also what uh um Gabor Mata says that um you know we as as children have these adaptive dynamics in us that basically um they help us endure the early stress. It can be it can be uh early childhood trauma, it can be just a lot of stress or instability in how we live. But the thing is, if those dynamics, those behaviors become later on regular, if they become habits that we use every single time that something similar happens, they actually become toxic on their own and become problem on their own, right? And so the more you have a person that is more sensitive and more easily gets uh activated, let's say, if they don't take care of themselves, and a lot of high-sensitive people, I mean, from my own experience, I can I can see that. I have, and I don't I don't have research on this. I'm not talking from perspective of numbers, but I'm talking from personal experience and my clients and people that I see in recovery, that the most easy it is in that situation, particularly for personal is highly sensitive, to actually slip again into the addictive behavior. It is so, it's so simple and it's so, it's such a such a subtle, you know, mechanism and shift that sometimes we can't even catch. And I think the me and you spoke about it last time. And when I said, I'll take a complete uh, you know, I'll just jump into this and say, you know, not all high highly sensitive people are addicts necessarily, but I do believe that most, if not all, addicts are highly sensitive people.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think that's like you said, perhaps you don't have the research on that. Uh we don't we maybe it's something something to be researched, but definitely from my experience as well, I would agree with you. There is a correlation there. Um, and yeah, with that, I'm wondering, would you be able to talk a bit more about what one of your biggest struggles has been as a highly sensitive person, you know, in relation to what we've just spoken about?

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Absolutely. And I was just thinking about actually this as I was saying, answering the previous question. Um, uh at first, I think that the biggest struggle, and this is this is more from the past, uh, not something that is current, but it was accepting it. Accepting that I am that I might be different, but I'm not weird, I'm not strange, I'm not broken, I'm not weak. I'm not emotional. There's nothing wrong with me. And this was huge. And the mean when I was younger, and you know how usually when we're young, we just don't want to be different. We just do not want to stand out. I I really felt that something is deeply wrong with me. And to to that, I believe that our culture is just not approaching this trait, this highly sensitive uh people trait adequately. And you mentioned it's not a disorder, it's it's a quality, it's a trait. It's it's a it's part of you know personality of certain people. And um I think many things can be approached differently. I almost feel that also what the society kind of is is pushing onto us and forcing, you know, the competitiveness, the resiliency, the aggressiveness, the the forcefulness, as well as the constantly wanting us to be happy and joyful. This messaging of being happy and being joyful is something that I really struggle with, right? Being sad, being sensitive is just not cool. It's just not cool enough. Like it's weakness, it's it's softness, it's almost a sign of quitting. That's how it's actually seen. Um, and you know, this this struggle accepting it, I don't know what is it for you, but when I was younger, this was horrible for me. This was very difficult for me. I would be interested just to hear like what you think about about this one, you know, uh, for you personally.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Yeah, I relate so much. Um, and I agree with everything you just said in terms of, you know, from my personal experience, um, I've had the same journey. I've always had this feeling also from when I was a very young child that there was something wrong with me, or that I was broken in some way, or yeah, I needed to change or fix myself. Um, and the other part of this is as you just shared, this idea that we always need to be okay, or we always need to be happy. And I just feel so strongly about the importance of you know us educating and sharing and letting people know that that's not the case. Like it is okay to not be okay, it's okay to be grieving, it's okay to feel depressed, it's okay to be sensitive, and there is nothing we need to fix or get over. Um, and there's so much power in staying with uh that discomfort and staying with yeah, our sensitivity. And I really believe, um, and this is everything I share through my work, that you know, being sensitive is a gift, and us sensitive people have so much to offer and bring into the world. However, yeah, we feel, as you just pointed out, that we need to somehow hide it or get over it or stop being that way. Um, whereas I think it is the opposite. Um, and yeah, I think we'll get to this in a moment because I I want to ask you about again something we've spoken about, which is this concept of the the wounded, I call it the wounded healer. Um but before we we talk more about that, I'm wondering, um, yeah, in terms of you know, the struggles and this idea of knowing it's okay to to be sensitive and knowing it's okay to not be okay, um, in the sense of having difficult emotions or difficult experiences, what's helped you on your journey of recovery and what's helped you to learn to embrace these gifts and navigate your sensitivity?

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Um, you know, um one of the struggles that that that I actually recently kind of uh let's say attacked, right? It was it was my challenge to actually learn what my needs are, to see what the needs are as a highly sensitive person, to recognize them when they appear, and then to learn how to create the proper boundaries. So this is this was huge in my not only recovery um uh in my personal life, but also in my professional life, because it let me actually keep and work on those boundaries. So these same factors are actually that I need to keep in check when I work with my obsessive and compulsive tendencies or my addictions, right? They tend to show up when I don't take a proper care of myself, like if I overschedule, if I don't get enough sleep, if I see too many clients or friends without a proper break, or engaging like negative rumination. So, so so stopping actually, stopping uh where mindfulness really and study of yoga and Buddhism comes in a lot, which is part of my recovery, is you know, taught me how to pause, become aware of what is going on inside of me right now, and then see, do I have to respond without getting activated and reacting? Is there something that will nourish me right now? Or maybe I can maybe I can just stay in this, what's going on right now, you know, as you mentioned, actually, why do I have to fix how I feel every single time? But it helps to notice it. And that's something that where I guess I'm kind of a um segueing into the uh what was helpful for me. So mindfulness, study of yoga, and Buddhism all come into this uh uh increasing the awareness, so being more aware, being more present with everything that's going on inside of me, even when those things tend to be so, so strong. Because before, whenever it gets strong, I have the automatic default, right? The habit. I pick up the glass, or I, you know, I had also moments with when I turned towards food or when I to turn towards partner or sex or intimacy or anything. So there's always these kind of things outside of me where mindfulness and the study of yoga and Buddhism actually help me with this a lot. Another thing where I see a great benefit is a community of like-minded people where we can feel that we belong, that we're not alone, and that we are accepted, you know, for who we are. Um, this this kind of in a way of more replies to recovery, because I'm I'm really not sure how much of a, let's say, a support group or or or a you know, community exists for for highly sensitive uh, you know, um 15 to 20 percent of a population, right? But uh but um for recovery, crucial is community. Crucial is community because it really shifts completely from what we um what we got used to. Like we're no longer in a habitual, habitual places, habitual people and groups. We actually have to shift to be surrounded more with those who are in a similar place like we are. Um, another thing that I think is really important is appropriate therapist. And I think that not every therapist knows how to work with highly sensitive people. And sometimes what I'm hearing more and more, high sensitivity can be actually to call it misdiagnosed with even things such as bipolar disorder, ADHD, or anxiety disorder. And if you think about these, you don't treat or or approach the problem in a same way at all.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

So really interesting. Uh, you've mentioned a few things there. And one is just the power of bringing awareness to your experiences and recognizing what your needs are, and with that, then being able to choose how you respond, choose how you set boundaries for yourself. And that's really covered through your um practice of Buddhism, yoga, and mindfulness, um, which I want to ask you more about in a moment. Uh, because you mentioned community as well, and definitely I believe it relates to highly sensitive people in that we also really need community, and that's one of the reasons I set up Highly Sensitive Humans and the Highly Sensitive Hub, which is a members' area where um highly sensitive people can come together and we meet twice a month online. Um, I have lots of resources in there, and it's just a way for us to connect and support each other because there is so much power in knowing that we're not alone. Um, and it's that sense of belonging as well, and knowing that we have others to help us feel safe, and I think another really important aspect of that is this sense that again, we don't need to fit into a box, we don't need to try and fit into the sense of what quote unquote normal is, but we can really just be ourselves and and be vulnerable as well. Um, so yeah, I really appreciate you mentioning the importance of community, and yeah, I'm wondering, yeah, so to go back to the Buddhism, the yoga, mindfulness, and also the compassionate inquiry you did with Dr. Gabor Mate. Um, and I know you also run eight-week online recovery groups which are related to Buddhism. Would you be able to share a bit more about those groups and and the work that you do?

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Uh absolutely, absolutely. Those are all um really useful modalities and and tools. So what I I guess I can just really say more about what I do, right? Because as you mentioned, um I I do many things or or better say I use many different modalities and approaches. And and I remember really, I my whole life I was interested in so many different things that at certain times I felt, you know, yet another time incompetent, you know, because how come I don't have an exact view of what I want to do, but I'm interested in so many things and like spread thin everywhere. Um, and so I've studied uh psychology and conflict resolution and mediation, and then yoga and Buddhism and meditation, and then Ayurveda and health coaching and mindfulness and compassionate inquiry, right? And then as as I mentioned, I'm also in recovery for the past, well, now it's gonna be seven years. And um, so how do I apply all of this? So, uh, first of all, not all of my clients are uh in recovering addicts. So I work with people that can come for uh, you know, um problems such as uh anxiety or wanting to explore some uh you know trauma or or maybe there's a slight depression, or maybe there's a compulsive tendencies and they're not not necessarily identifying with being an addict, right? So really, I guess I apply everything that I know depending on the need, on the very individual need of what person wants. Um I work one-on-one with people, currently only online because we're in a pandemic, but I also teach groups, and uh currently what I do with groups is really my um eight-week mindfulness-based addiction recovery course, which we shortly call MBAR, uh mindfulness-based addiction recovery. And um, since you've mentioned already um eight-step recovery program, I want to say that the same person, the same uh woman developed two of these programs, Eight-Step Recovery and MBAR. And her name is Valerie Mason John. And I'll make sure that we have uh her website included uh in the notes for this podcast because I think it's a wonderful resource. So, eight-week mindfulness uh course is basically a course open to everyone who maybe want to learn how to meditate and actually really improve their mindfulness and meditation practice, or for people who straightforward identify with uh with a certain addiction and they need an additional support, an additional resource in how to work with their addiction, assuming that they also have other supports and that they are actually uh sober, so that they're actually clean in the moment when they start the program. Uh, this course has been extremely successful, and I just finished teaching uh two groups. Um, and um it's been just proven to be so useful and beneficial for such a different range of people, and it's filled with a lot of uh practical tools, meditations, mindfulness exercises, as well as certain models and dynamics and mechanisms for better understanding of addiction, relapse processes, and the just the vicious cycle of it all. And so that's the eight-week uh course, right? The eight-step recovery program is a Buddhist approach to recovery. And it's the format of this program is very similar for uh two 12-step programs. And whoever is in recovery will understand, will know what I mean. Uh, this is not a course that I'm teaching, this is not something that costs a certain fee. This is my service. This is I just facilitate the meetings and I follow the format that exists in every single eight-step uh recovery meeting. We have a format that we follow and we have a book. And so we read from the book, we we share in the meeting, and assuming that people who identify with any addiction, that they're gonna be there. So anybody, no matter what addiction they identify with, can be in that meeting. I like to say that this meeting is also open to all, but it's probably more kind of specific and geared towards people who really identify with addictions. Um, whereas my mindfulness eight-week course can really be interesting for different people. They don't have to necessarily be in recovery from addiction. And so that those are the two things that I do. So I teach the course, I run, I facilitate the meeting once a week, and then I work one-on-one. And in that one-on-one work, I, you know, sometimes I can I can I can be an Ayurvedic counselor, for example. And being an Ayurvedic counselor, um, Ayurveda works on teaching us a proper lifestyle, one that would allow for balance with the nature and its cycles, um, as well as allow for individual differences and individual needs. So sometimes people want to, you know, fix uh their their diet, their sleeping patterns, their their fatigue, for example, and you know, then then they come, for example, for Ayurveda only. If we talk about counseling uh or counseling or therapy, I um I use the combination of everything I know, but since I received a certification and education in compassionate inquiry, I actually mostly use that approach uh in my work. And compassionate inquiry is a really beautiful approach that no matter what background people have, um we can we can use it to simply um get the client in this in this presence place where they become curious as to what is going on inside of them and what is coming up. And we're basically working with the things that come up, not so much in the analysis of the mind and intellect and cognitive part, but also just on the levels of feelings, of the body sensations, and anything that actually opens up in the moment. It is a beautiful approach that um really focuses on the client and their own process without me kind of stepping is in as a as a hero, helper, you know, somebody who's there to actually, you know, help a person, but more just guide and witness and offers my my own presence in that in that process. Um so I think that would be kind of like on what what levels and what kind of different approaches, you know, there's coaching and then there's also counseling, right? In one, I can educate people, in the other one, I kind of more sit back, right? And and uh and allow a client to dig in as deep as they want to.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, as you said, it's really about the individual client or who you're working with in terms of what modality or approach you might adopt. Um, and I think that's why it's so important, you know. I can relate to what you said in terms of from my background, I've done so much training in different modalities. Um, and I think that's crucial in terms of being able to bring them together in this very integrative approach and drawing on what is needed for that individual person. So I think it's a real strength to have um many different uh modalities to draw upon. I was wondering, could you explain a little bit about the difference between the 12-step recovery program and the eight-step? So I understand it in terms of you know, the eight-step is uh the Buddhist-inspired approach. Um and I'm just wondering, because I imagine a few people listening might be wondering, oh, what's the difference? Or why would I choose the eight-step recovery over the 12-step? And what would you say to that?

SPEAKER_00 41:20

That's a really great question. And um, I I have been a part of both of these uh programs, so I can really speak from my personal experience. Uh 12-step recovery, so 12-step programs, original 12-step program is Alcoholics Anonymous. This program has been developed in the United States um around uh in the 20th century, around 1930s, let's say. Basically, the program was developed by two um Anglo-Saxon or let's say white uh Christian Americans. So the the the the basis, the ground of this program is out of that necessarily kind of Christian. There is no necessity for one to be a Christian, to belong in any Christian uh church or institution in order to join this program. But what you will hear a lot about in this program is Word God. In some of the programs, the word God is exchanged with the higher power or God of your understanding. Uh, a lot of the prayers and meditations are kind of used from Christian traditions but changed slightly. And I mean, to be honest with you, I love the program. I this program was my support when I needed it most. I studied Buddhism even before I actually got clean and sober. But it wasn't until I went into the 12-step program where I found a community in the middle of Los Angeles. I mean, city where you can really party and it can get really difficult to actually get clean and sober. It wasn't till then that I was actually able to stop. So I am absolutely grateful for this program. However, for me personally, being that I was like I come from a Christianity. I was baptized when I was a kid. I come from Orthodox Christian country, but I do not resonate with Christianity. I resonate with Buddhism and much with Hinduism, even. But I I was able to receive and to give back through 12 step recovery for a few years. I was very active. I was sponsoring people, I was facilitating meetings, I was really, really active. And then I hit the moment where I could not go any deeper with it. I just came to a point where I need I need something I will resonate more and I will something where I will go deeper. And then I'm gonna add again what I already mentioned about the medical model. That just simply didn't work for me anymore. I needed something where I can get rid of that of that identification identification of being alcoholic. I don't want to sit and repeat, I'm Marina, I'm an alcoholic, I'm Marina, I'm an alcoholic, like a mantra. I don't want that. And that's something that is uh that is a part of Alcoholics Anonymous that I can say for sure. And so eight-step recovery is not the only Buddhist approach to recovery. There is another program that is called refuge recovery. And I was firstly part of this program because this program was developed in Los Angeles. Now, not to go into details about any of them, but there is that's those are the Buddhist approach to recovery. Similarly to Gabor Mata's definition of addiction. In Buddhism, we also look at the addictions as if those, you know, they're outside things, situations, people, places that we attach to in order to avoid suffering and pain and actually experience joy and happiness. Isn't that addiction? I mean, that that's basically it, right? I'm I'm grasping towards whatever gives me joy or relieves my suffering, and I'm having aversion towards anything that gives me pain. That's addiction, but that's human conditioning. That's a basic human conditioning. So I'm I'm very broadly speaking here. That's kind of in a way what Buddhism talks about and teaches us not to grasp for those experiences. So these programs, um, in particular A-Step Recovery, focuses on uh Buddhist teachings and Buddhist uh principles of Buddhism that can be really useful in recovering from addictions, as well as meditations and mantras and chantings and mindfulness exercises. And um, to be part of this meeting or this program, you do not have to know anything about Buddhism, you do not have to identify as a Buddhist, you can also be part of both communities. Currently, in my meeting that I facilitate, most people that are in my meeting are people who have been in recovery through 12-step programs for decades. And they they they they go into both programs and they enjoy what they receive from both. So very open, very inclusive. Um I think this kind of kind of uh sums it up. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Yeah, no, thank you. It does, and it's really helpful. Um, and I have to say, you know, coming from a Buddhist background myself, I I wouldn't call myself a Buddhist, but I'm inspired by Buddhist philosophy, and that that's what's helped me the most on my journey. And actually, Marina, I'm thinking back to I think it's a couple of years ago now, where because you mentioned Valerie Mason-John, and she is the um founder of the Eight Step Recovery Program, right? And we're gonna put her website in the show notes, and um, I also attended her 10-day retreat at New Life Foundation when you and I were working there. Um it was a few years ago now, and I can't remember the name of the retreat actually, but I detox your heart. Detox your heart, yeah. And we went through some of the processes during that retreat, and I have to say, it was for me one of the most transformative um retreats I've ever been on. Um, there was so much, such a need to embrace our vulnerability and you know, using the Buddhist um approaches, like you said, mindfulness and mantras, and also that sense of community that was formed within that group, within that retreat. Um, I mean, you and I were working at the retreat center at the time. So, you know, we were we were coming at it from a different angle, let's say. Um, perhaps in both worlds of uh working as counselors, coaches, and uh being the let's say the client as well. Um, but yeah, it was such a powerful experience. So um I really appreciate you sharing that. And I think as well, because you mentioned the word God, um, and if that is that can be a barrier for some people. Um, I know it used to be quite a big barrier for myself in terms of you know hearing the word God and wondering what that even meant. So to have um a support group or community where you know we're coming at it from a different uh philosophy, let's say, I think that's really important. Um which brings me to the question that I brought up earlier. Because I just mentioned us being on the retreat and this idea of being, you know, in the role of client and then counsellor and coach at the same time. So it reminds me of this concept of the wounded healer I brought up earlier. And I know again, we we spoke recently about how our personal challenges and struggles and trauma and wounds are what have enabled us to do the work we do. And, you know, we spoke about how we're on this constant journey of unfolding and healing and becoming aware of deeper layers of ourselves as we, you know, as we work to help others, we are also helping and healing ourselves. Um, and this is something I feel so passionate about because I really also want to move away from this myth that just because let's say we're working in this helping profession, um that we are healed and that we've got it all figured out. I wish that was the case. I was just wondering, yeah, how how do you relate to this? And yeah, again, why do you think this is so important for us to uh talk about?

SPEAKER_00 50:47

I love it. I mean, a wounded warrior or wounded healer is so significant to all of us, right? In this uh in whoever is doing people work or any or any kind of healing, because we are all wounded healers. And to be quite honest, that's one of the main reasons why we chose to do what we do, right? Sure, there is the desire to alleviate the suffering of others, but I mean, we actually, because of be our wounded, we want, we got motivated. Something in us sparked this idea. I remember when I started psychology, one of my first classes in the other undergraduate program, they asked us, like, why are we here? Why are we studying psychology? And I remember most of us, you know, raising hands and saying, oh, because I want to help others and I want to help people. And thinking, you know what? I want to understand the workings of my own mind and my behaviors. I first want to figure this thing out, me. Um, and obviously, yes, I want to alleviate the suffering of others. Um, I have to say, though, that um we don't need to be perfect. We don't need to finish this path of healing. If you ask me, recovery in general, not from addiction, but any recovery, any growth, transformation, any change, it's all part of life. It's a to me, it's like it's a never-ending process. Not in the way that I want to self-improve, not in a way that I want to be violent and aggressive towards myself and never be satisfied with myself, but yes, in the way that I always want to learn more and figure out new ways and see how more in depth I can go. So, in that way, for me, this my own personal path is never gonna end. It's never gonna stop. But we have to be careful about one thing. We actually um have to work out our own issues, or we have to be working out our own issues as we work with others. We have to figure out where we are wounded, otherwise, we can easily go and hurt others without even knowing. So it's essential to recognize our own woundedness, knowing what happened to me. I have to know what happened to me, I have to understand it, I have to own it, and then I have to take responsibility and move from it, grow through from it and transform from it and change. Because otherwise, otherwise, I can actually be asking myself, am I helping from the wound place or am I helping from authentic place? Is this me, you know, helping because, you know, in the past, when I was a child, I learned that I have to be there for everybody, otherwise, I'm not a good person. And that's my underlying belief about myself, that I'm a piece of shit, that actually, unless I'm doing things for others, I won't be noticed or acknowledged. Or am I actually helping from an authentic place, from this healthy place where I am present to guide others to process, but I'm not attaching myself and I'm not seeing myself responsible for how far they go because it's their process. And in that sense, I think, you know, we we have to understand where our wound is, be okay with it, but we can't be blind to what our stuff is. I gotta know what's mine, and I have to be figuring out what to do with it. Um, otherwise, I can actually hurt people.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Yeah, absolutely. And I really appreciate you saying that. Um, and you know, you said that question, am I helping from the wounded place or the authentic self? And I think that's so powerful and important that we need to ask ourselves that. And in fact, I feel everyone needs to ask that question, whether we're working in a helping profession or not, just as we go around about in our day-to-day lives, you know, just asking, where are my choices coming from? Um, yeah, why am I doing this? What part of me is being um activated right now? And I think another thing you said which really resonated with me was this sense of, yeah, we're not trying to, because I I fell into this trap before, you know, when I started this journey, I was on this constant uh search to improve and fix myself. That's how it felt when I was younger. How do I make myself okay? How do I, yeah, going back to what we said earlier, how do I get over this? How do I become healed and perfect, you know, striving for that perfection? And it's really been a long journey for me to, and I'm I'm still on this journey, but you know, just realizing that I'm never going to be healed, I'm never going to be perfect, and actually there's so much power in just embracing our imperfections and embracing our wounds and knowing it is those wounds that drive us. Um, and for me, yeah, the the wounds, the the trauma, the um parts of me that have been broken are what drive me forward. Um, and I'm not trying to get rid of them. Um, I'm trying to hold space for them. So, yeah, such a such an important concept and message.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

I I have I have to completely say I completely relate with you. You know, first of all, I was thinking that I am not perfect and I waited for a long time. I always do. Whenever I finish a certain, either a certain um a certain kind of like a uh process of my own or a certain educational, you know, certification or a program, I actually get very conscientious and doubtful if I'm ready to teach it, if I'm ready to share it. And there's always this uncertainty because I think I have to be in this place of perfection and I cannot mess up. And what are others gonna think if I, God forbid, say something, but then I don't act it completely? Sure, I have to walk my talk, right? I and and and and not preach, but rather rather be put myself down on earth, right? And and just simply walk side by side with others and share my experience. That's how I see it. But there was a time when I was younger, when I was more doubtful, when I felt more incompetent, when I when when well, you know, in times when I'm not fully balanced, I tend to slide into these places and to what wonder sometimes am I fake? Am I phony in this process? You know, how is it that sometimes I act out still on certain things, you know? Um, what would people think if they would see me or hear my thoughts? And honestly, the only things that help me then is compassion. It's compassion. I'm a human being. I'm a human being. One thing that I love about it is that never again will this thing, this doubt, this rumination, never again it will go unnoticed. Because I know now better. I know what to look for, I know how to notice it, I know how to sense it, how to take care of myself and know when I'm not okay, when I'm not well, when something's going on. Um and that's huge. That's huge, right? We're not perfect, but hey, I I I'm so much more in touch with who I am, and I notice things.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Yeah, that is huge. And again, that reminds me of this idea that the let's say, because we're talking about the sense of being an imposter or yeah, thinking we're a fraud, or that all of those doubts and fears that comes up for me as well. And I actually don't know anyone who doesn't experience that um in some way, shape, or form. But the amazing thing, what you're saying, is actually perhaps it never goes away fully, but we can be aware of it and then choose how we respond to that, right? And that's the power of compassion and mindfulness and being present with ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

Yeah, so um, I'm just wondering to kind of wrap things up a bit because we are coming close to the end. Do you have a favorite book or quote or something you'd like to share for our listeners today?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Oh, wow. I know that people usually ask this in podcasts, and and I have such a hard time remembering like one thing or one book, or you know. Um, but I do want to say that I that I very, very strongly recommend to people um Gabor Mate's book in the realm of hungry ghosts. Um absolutely, and I think that that that book is brilliant on so many levels. Um, the hungry ghosts concept is basically uh uh in Buddhism, like a s like a symbol from Buddhism that that basically is addiction. These are these mythical creatures with like small mouth and uh and narrow necks and big bellies that can never get enough, which is kind of symbolically what addiction is. And it's a beautiful, amazing book that has a personal story as an example, as well as some of his theory and his thoughts about it, and very readable and for like lay people, not only those who are working in addiction and recovery field. So that would be one of the addiction particular. And I have to say Pema Chordran's book, When Things Fall Apart, yeah, just because I I, you know, I go through books and then I constantly go back to some quote from that book or from something that I heard there. And for those who don't know, Paima Chordren is one of the Western Buddhist teachers and nuns that is really, really brilliant and many, many books that are all amazing, but when things fall apart is my favorite. Um, so maybe too too much kind of a classic thing, but uh I'll I'll keep it, I'll leave it there. And in terms of the quote, I gotta tell you, I just recently listened to a podcast where this brilliant uh therapist, who's also a highly sensitive person, where she was actually on the podcast that um I can also give you that as a resource. It's a brilliant podcast for for women, particularly. And um, I read uh her quote about highly sensitive people, very brief. You're not too sensitive, you're exquisitely perceptive. And I love it. I love it. You're not too sensitive, you're exquisitely perceptive. Yeah, that's pretty it helped me a lot. You know, like it kind of switched it right away from this kind of like a weak place to this empowered and and and amazing strength, actually. For me, at least that happened when I read it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And also the books, um, interestingly, um, I have In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts right in front of me in this very moment because I knew we were going to be talking about Gabo Mate today. And I love that book. And also another one of uh his books, which is a favorite of mine, is Scattered Mind or Scattered Minds. Yes, which where he talks about ADD and ADHD, and that's a whole different topic, but again, I I just love how he moves away from the medical model in in terms of talking about ADD and ADHD and relates it to trauma. And I think many highly sensitive people will relate to that as well. Um, so thank you for sharing those. And then Pemetrodron, yeah, when things fall apart. I go to that book all the time as well. I remember reading it quite a few years ago when I was going through quite a difficult time and just found it so helpful. So yeah, I also would recommend that book. So I'll put those links in the show notes for everyone. And yeah, is there anything else you want to share today as we come to the end now?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

I wanted to share, I want to share that. Um I want to share that I think that what kept me in this in this place of constantly wanting to continue, not only growing myself, but doing what I do, is seeing the possibility and capacity of all humans to change and to transform. And honestly, through through recovery and through through um even through 12-step programs and communities, I've seen and I witnessed stories of people that if I'd heard those stories years ago before I started my process of recovery, I would not think that those people would stand a chance in the world. And seeing the ability of people and the capacity of people, every single one, to change, to change their point of view, to change their reality, to actually, you know, move from the space of victimhood and and and the place where we have to live, you know, from the places that have happened to us in the past to this new place. So like, okay, I can't change that, but I can relate differently to it. That is something that really is amazing. And I think for us who are highly sensitive, living living deeply can mean that we feel things a lot, and they can often leave us, you know, uh feeling depleted and fragile and like everything we do is wrong and like we're drowning. But the thing is, we have to remember that we also feel more delight, we feel more meaning, we feel more joy, and we see and and get more from beauty. And every time I personally forget, you know, and I turn towards the the the downfalls of the highly being a highly sensitive person, I have to remember also of the the the other side of the coin. And I think that's really important is something that we should not stop repeating and and getting reminders of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I think that's such a great point to finish on. Um that yeah, reminder that there is that potential there, and we can always we can always heal and reach our other sides. So um, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that. And thank you so much for being on the podcast today. It's been amazing to talk to you about all of this.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

Thank you so much, Jules, for having me. I I really honestly, when I say I feel honored, I I I love this. I love because it allowed me actually to also dive deep more into myself and my personal story and also relate to my clients. It's been lovely being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

Brilliant. And I will put all of the links uh to your website and all of the resources we've mentioned today in the show notes so that'll be accessible for everyone. So thanks again. Thanks for joining me this week on Highly Sensitive Humans. Make sure to visit my website, highly sensitivehumans.com, where you can subscribe to my mail list for regular updates, or join the Highly Sensitive Hub, which is a membership area and growing community for highly sensitive people. In the membership area, I share monthly bundles of resources, tools, meditations, and we have a community forum and monthly workshops for us to get together and support each other on our journey. And if you found value in the show, I'd really appreciate a rating and review. Please share this episode with your friends or other highly sensitive people that will find this podcast helpful.