Spiritual Awakening Experiences and The Highly Sensitive Person

In this episode, we discuss the potential connection between high sensitivity and spiritual awakening experiences. Jessica shares her recently published research 'Spontaneous Spiritual Awakenings: Phenomenology, Altered States, Individual Differences, and Well-Being'. We identify what spiritual awakening experiences are, the challenges that can come with these experiences as well as the positive long-term effects of spiritual awakening experiences. 

Jessica Corneille, MSc is a Research Psychologist specialising in spontaneous spiritual awakening experiences. She graduated with a Masters Degree in Psychology (Distinction) from the University of Greenwich, where she focused her studies on altered states of consciousness. With a passion to bridge the worlds of science and spirituality, her mission is to challenge the default pathologisation of awakening experiences by helping to inform and encourage mainstream psychology to look beyond the current designated spectrum of ‘normality’, to encompass the transpersonal as something that is intrinsic to the human experience. 

Jessica recently published her research on the phenomenology, individual differences and well-being effects of spontaneous spiritual awakenings with Dr David Luke, and has given a number of talks on her work, including with the British Psychological Society (BPS). She works for the Scientific and Medical Network and Galileo Commission, is a collaborator of the Emergent Phenomenology Research Consortium and Spiritual Crisis Network, and is a certified Kundalini Yoga teacher.

Resources:
 Spiritual Crisis Network (SCN): https://www.spiritualcrisisnetwork.uk

International Spiritual Emergence Network (ISEN): https://www.spiritualemergencenetwork.org

American Center for the Integration of Spiritually Transformative Experiences (ACISTE): https://aciste.org

Spiritual Awakenings International (SAI) – sharing circles: https://spiritualawakeningsinternational.org

 Emerging Proud: https://www.emergingproud.com 

 Publication (Frontiers in Psychology): Spontaneous Spiritual Awakenings: Phenomenology, Altered States, Individual Differences, and Well-Being: https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.720579

Jessica's Contact: jessicacorneille@gmail.com

Jules' Bio
Jules De Vitto has a degree in Psychology, an MA in Education and an MSc in Transpersonal Psychology, Consciousness and Spirituality. She is a  certified Transpersonal Coach who is experienced at helping Highly Sensitive People navigate experiences of anxiety, stress and burnout. She is passionate about guiding Highly Sensitive People to live in alignment with their authentic selves and connect with their soul purpose in life. Jules offers 1-1 coaching, workshops and an online 8-week course for Highly Sensitive People.

You can stay connected with Jules through...
Instagram
Facebook Group
Highly Sensitive Humans Website
1-1 coaching (book a 30-min free consultation)
The 8-Week Online Course

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome, I'm your host, Jules DeVito, and you're listening to the Highly Sensitive Human Podcast, the show that offers an insight into the world of the highly sensitive person and helps those who identify with the traits of high sensitivity to feel more empowered and resilient without denying their authentic gifts.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

So, welcome to this episode of the Highly Sensitive Human Podcast. And in today's episode, we're talking about spiritual awakening experiences and the highly sensitive person. So, this is a topic that's really close to my heart because of my interest in transpersonal psychology and my personal experiences with spiritual awakening and being highly sensitive myself. So, in this episode, I speak with Jessica Cornet and we discuss the potential connection between high sensitivity and spiritual awakening experiences. So Jessica shares her recently published research, Spontaneous Spiritual Awakenings, Phenomenology, Altered States, Individual Differences, and Wellbeing. So we identify what spiritual awakening experiences are, the challenges that can come with these experiences, as well as the positive long-term effects of spiritual awakenings. So Jessica is a research psychologist specializing in spontaneous spiritual awakening experiences. She graduated with a master's degree in psychology from the University of Greenwich, where she focused her studies on altered states of consciousness. She has a passion to bridge the worlds of science and spirituality, and her mission is to challenge the default pathologization of awakening experiences by helping to inform and encourage mainstream psychology to look beyond the current designated spectrum of normality, to encompass the transpersonal as something that is intrinsic to the human experience. So I'm really excited to welcome Jessica on the podcast today. Thank you, Jules. It's lovely to be here. I've been following your podcast a lot. Thank you. And obviously, the purpose of our conversation today is really to make this connection between being sensitive and spiritual awakening experiences. So, could you share a little bit about your understanding or experience of what it means to be sensitive yourself?

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Yeah. So when I was younger, I used to think that it was a bit of a curse to be sensitive. But I've since realized the great gifts that sensitivity can bring to people, particularly a heightened awareness of everything around us and everything within us as well. And of course, that can be difficult because it can expose us to a lot of the trauma and the darkness that we, you know, might need sifting, um sifting over. But it is actually a great gift, I've come to realize. Again, linking back to the awareness that sensitivity can bring us, and um, and the levels of empathy and levels of um kind of understanding that it can bring us can also open up new windows um and new horizons for understanding life itself, I feel.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Yeah, absolutely, and I can relate to that a lot, and I think this is what we'll talk more about today, but I think so many sensitive people do struggle with the darker side of being sensitive, so the trauma and the sensitivity to uh difficult experiences, but I I also believe that there's so many gifts behind this sensitive sensitivity, and this is what we'll touch upon today in terms of the the spiritual aspect of this. So, yeah, could you share a bit more about the work that you do? So I know that you obviously are a research psychologist and you also work as a Kundalini yoga teacher, and yeah, how how does your work um connect to what we're talking about today?

SPEAKER_02 4:40

So, my actual the reasoning behind my work or the reason why I'm on this journey is because I myself have had a spiritual awakening experience over five years ago, and I I realized that there wasn't very much information on the experience, um, particularly from a scientific perspective, uh, which has you know become, as you know, become the new religion uh for people nowadays. So it's the it's often the only framework through which people can understand certain experiences. And I realized that there wasn't really a place that I could turn to at the time of my experience, despite it being an incredibly blissful and positive experience. And and the more I understood this, uh the more I wanted to begin investigating, or I say investigating, but just you know, going on Google and looking up other people's experiences. And I realized that the experience wasn't always all that positive, that people had undergone you know extremely challenging um types of awakening experiences. And I realized that there was really uh, you know, a gap in science and scientific research on this kind of um layer of human existence. Um and it made me question, you know, why is this not being taught in schools? Why am I not able to relate to anybody on this topic in terms of the scientific community? And so, yeah, that was sort of the reasoning. I know that's not that doesn't exactly answer your question, but it's just to give you a little bit of a context uh into why I decided, as a highly sensitive person um who's had this experience to indulge in this kind of path and um from both an experiential um perspective but also scientific one. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yeah, absolutely. That that does make sense, and I'm curious, would you be open to sharing a bit more about what that spiritual awakening experience was for you or how it was triggered in your life?

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Yeah, um, well, as with anything in life, I think you know, everything is a buildup to a specific moment. So I think whilst you know my specific research investigates spontaneous experiences, which is what happened to me, I would say it was very sudden and spontaneous, and that it didn't have a trigger to it that I can pinpoint. But everything in my life clearly led up to that moment. So I just wanted to clarify that. Um, but it was, as I said, very sudden and spontaneous. I didn't know anything about spirituality at the time. Um, I had not been exposed to any sort of esoteric or philosophical, uh, sorry, Eastern philosophical kind of belief systems or um yeah, shamanic um ideas and and so on and so forth. So I hadn't been exposed to all of that, to any of that, in fact. And um, I was a very proud atheist. Um, I had been raised agnostic and an atheist. And so I there was no reason for me to have had that experience when I did. Um, but I basically moved country um and changed jobs, and I was living a very exciting period of my life. And then suddenly, after um a night's sleep, where I had a very intense lucid dream, uh, which is a whole whole story in itself, which I probably won't go into now because it's very um very in-depth and detailed. But um after this very intense lucid dream, I woke up and um as I tend to say, I woke up to a new day, but I also woke up to a new reality because it um it felt as though I hadn't only opened my eyes to kind of you know the moment that I was in, you know, the post-sleep moment, the awakening moment, but also an awakening to life. Um and I had this incredible sensitivity to um all my sense, all my senses came alive basically. Uh the colors were so so vivid, um, sounds around me were really strong and intense. Um you know, for the days following and even the weeks and months, everything that I put in my mouth, all the food, you know, food and and drink tasted so delicious, and everything was so enhanced. Um and and yeah, so that was the more kind of from uh the sensitivity perspective, that's what happened. But then I also had an increased sensitivity to other people. So I had always been a you know a highly sensitive person, but I became really in touch with nature, with other human beings, with animals, um, and with the general flow of life, I would say actually. Um, I was much more able, I became much more able to let things go and to let things pass. Um, I became a lot more grateful in life. Um, and again, this experience wasn't a perceived, you know, gratitude experience or or perceived kind of experience of connection with everything and everyone, um, and universal consciousness, even it was a deeply felt, deeply embodied um experience where it felt like every cell in my body had awoken to actually to a reality that is all around us all the time, already. It's nothing new, it's it's an ancient sort of way of understanding and perceiving life. Um and and so, yeah, that's basically there were many aspects to it, and I could go on forever. But yeah, it just transformed my life in a in the most radical way. It felt as though I had returned to being a child again or seeing through childlike eyes. And I had to begin to reinterpret the world around me through a different kind of mental perspective, um, through a different lens. So, yeah, and it was it was an overall very positive, beautiful experience, and it's what what leads me here today as well, um, and uh and with all the work that I do naturally.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yeah, and it's so fascinating. Thank you for sharing a bit about your story and your experience. I have so many questions that I want to ask you. Um, and as you've said, this has really led to the work and the research that you do today. So you recently had um your research published on spontaneous spiritual awakenings. And I'm just wondering, actually, before we continue, just for the listeners, can we define what we mean by spiritual awakening experiences? So obviously, you've shared your experience. What could they look like for other people, or how might we identify them in our lives as sensitive people? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Um, well, usually they don't really need identifying because it's such a strong sensation, whether it be spontaneous or gradual, um, one knows when they when they have an experience of awakening. Um it's almost as though something switches on and uh and the light is suddenly on and it's very evident. But anyway, um it's they're they're characterized by an overwhelming sense of connection or communion or even complete non-dual merging or experience of oneness with a with a perceived ultimate reality or the universe, uh, the divine. Some people may call it God. Um it really depends on you know the framework or the lack of framework that one perceives the experience at the time of it. So, um, but it's as I said, it it really is characterized by a sense of connection with everything and everyone, the animate and the inanimate in this in this universe, in this infinite universe or consciousness. Um and that's usually the common thread that runs through all these experiences. They can be uh more or less intense, uh, they can last more or less time, so they can last from seconds to hours to days to weeks to months to years, and they they can actually be an ongoing state for many people. Um but whether they're short or long-lasting in their you know peak effect, they usually have a profound long-term effect on anybody who who um who is in touch with this state, who has been in touch with this state. Um, the experience can sometimes extend to the more physical. So some people report um you know strong sensations of heat or electric shocks in the body. Uh, most commonly reported is a sense of uh energy rising from the base of the spine to the crown of the head, as is most typically depicted in um yogic philosophy through Kundalini awakenings or kundalini experiences. Um, something that I particularly felt in my experience was a sense of auric luminosity, a sense that there was light emanating from my body. Um, even though I couldn't see it, it was very well perceived. Um and then, you know, there are a number of other physical experiences that one might undergo uh in that state. And then the experience can also extend to the more paranormal. So some report um, or actually many reports increase synchronicities or um coincidences, um, an increased uh kind of acknowledgement of archetypal symbols around them. Uh, some may report telepathic experiences and so on. So they the experiences can vary, but they usually are connected or all yeah, all connected by this you know golden thread of uh a perception of understanding, of self-realization, and of uh merging with with something that is greater than oneself, and yet that already exists within oneself too. So um it's not really aligned with a classic sense of you know, God being outside of oneself, something to look up to. It's more something that as far as as far as I've understood from my own experience and from the experience of all those that I've interviewed and that I've spoken to, you know, so it's a perception of being the God of one's own life and yet everybody else also being God and us just being connected.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

I know this is a big question, but would you be able to give um a quick overview of what your findings were from the research you did? So, yeah, what came from conducting this research?

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Yeah, so um we wanted to investigate a little better the phenomenology, so the qualities of the experiences um and the variances of of these spiritual awakening experiences. I won't, you know, I've already touched on that, and there's a lot more I can discuss, but I won't go too much in depth on that. I'm just going to give you an overview. Um, and we, you know, for instance, we found that uh the experiences were predominantly positive in both short and long terms, but higher percentages in the long-term positive effects reported might indicate that you know the experience is almost always perceived as positive, even after initially difficult experiences. Because what I didn't mention is that you know the experience of awakening can be extremely traumatic, even as one finds himself suddenly stripped of all pre-existing concepts of themselves and of the world around them. So they can be very difficult experiences. Um, but uh our research suggests that the experience is actually predominantly positive, and therefore the reason why this is important um is because typically in mainstream psychiatry and in medicine, the experience of awakening or what people report as awakening experiences are still overwhelmingly more likely to be considered, you know, psychopathological, i.e., mental health disorders such as bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and psychotic breaks. And yes, you know, whilst the overlaps are pretty evident from a Western mainstream psychology perspective, the experiences of awakening are um, I just we wanted to show that they were also perceived or predominantly perceived as positive and therefore should, you know, also be interpreted as experiences in their own right, which I strongly believe they are. I don't believe that they're always accompanied by um, you know, mental health disorder, um, if anything, the opposite. And actually, we see in our research that they can, you know, as a preliminary kind of study, but we see that they can kind of um reduce psychopathological tendencies in people. Um, I'm the next research project I'm going to be undertaking is to look at um addiction cessation from awakening experiences. So we're starting to understand through psychedelic research that mystical experiences can be conducive to um heightened well-being and also healing from addictions and depression and anxiety. But this, you know, I do believe that the same that that this is true also for spontaneous experiences, and and I've I've seen that anecdotally, I've investigated that um with the interviews that I've conducted, and I'll be kind of undertaking a research project on that um shortly. So anyway, going back to the research, those who are more likely to experience perhaps symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy or epilepsy more generally might be more likely to experience something that they would define as awakening, or that we would define as awakening. Um, trait absorption was also found to be a predictor of the experience of awakening, um, trait absorption being the trait measuring depth of engrossment in a specific stimulus without attentional control. So again, you know, we found sort of we wanted to unpick a little bit the sort of um psychological and and perhaps neurobiological underpinnings of these experiences, but again, you know, you know, we need to repeat these kinds of uh experiments and and uh a lot more research needs to be done to be absolutely 100% sure. But this is what we found in our research. Um, and then we found, again, as a preliminary kind of um investigation, that uh when we compared spontaneous spiritual awakenings against backdrop of uh altered states of consciousness, both drug and non-drug-induced, uh, we found that uh awakening experiences of a spontaneous nature were more um strong experiences overall. So, and that and that they were more um more similar to DNT and psilocybin experiences compared to all other measured non-drug and drug-induced altered states of consciousness. Which I would say that for those who have um you know delved into altered states, it might be quite evident that the experience of awakening is more likened to DNT and psilocybin experiences, as they are usually conducive to things like awakening experiences. But you know, again, to put this in a more kind of scientific in more scientific um um terminologies um and to make them available in science and in academia is is important.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Yeah, absolutely, and and thank you for sharing. And what I'll do is uh put a link to your research in the show notes so people can access that and have a look at that if they want to look at it in more detail. And just to go back to a point you made a few minutes ago, I'm really I'm really passionate and fascinated about this idea that even though, you know, you mentioned that even though some spiritual awakening experiences can be traumatic and really difficult, ultimately in the long term, you found that they do lead to positive long term effects. And I'm just wondering like how this links to sensitive people, because from my experience, a lot of sensitive people um struggle a lot. With the impact of trauma, uh, anxiety, overwhelm, depression, and things that can be very much labeled as mental illness through the mainstream medical model, let's say. And on the other hand, I've also experienced that sensitive people connect deeply with sense of gratitude, joy, awe. And I'm wondering how this kind of reframe of seeing potentially seeing these experiences of mental illness as like opportunities to awaken or to emerge can help highly sensitive people navigate these experiences. So I'm just wondering, yeah, what your perspective is on there.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Um, well, certainly reframing uh these experiences as opportunities uh for growth can help remove their stigma, uh, can enable people to actually be more open to sharing their experience and thus give a voice to those who may feel uncomfortable with sharing them. Um as we know, you know, peer support and validation are incredible um opportunities for growth, especially in this area. So, you know, the more we sort of um speak about it and reframe it in the mainstream, but also in certainly in um in the medical and and psychiatric systems, the more that these experiences can be accepted, and thus perhaps people could uh would feel more comfortable not only with sharing them but also with experiencing them and letting themselves go with them. Um I think one of the greatest um difficulties is surrendering to the experience of awakening, and and I think if there's um more of a kind of knowledge around this prior to the experience, or at least uh uh knowing that it is accepted in society, then people would would be would allow themselves much more to let go and surrender to the experience, and and thus that would increase their probability of um using it as a transformational tool towards better well-being, um better connection, pro-social behaviours, and and increased pro-environmental behaviors as well. Um, you know, having said that, I make it sound easy, and it's really not a lot of the time, and I think it's important for me to stress that as well. Um, letting go isn't always easy, and uh, you know, sometimes it's not ideal either. Um you know, everyone needs to tune into what they feel is best for them.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm just wondering, you know, again, from my experience from working with sensitive people and from being sensitive myself, I have experienced that we're more likely to innately feel this connection with the the divine or God, whatever it is you however you want to label it. Yeah. And do you think that could also be the case that highly sensitive people are more inclined to already kind of know this experience of oneness or the divine?

SPEAKER_02 25:28

I believe so. Yeah, I do believe so. Um, intuitively, that would make absolute sense, as you know, it's all about increasing one's sensitivity. When one enters this state, we've seen you know, people become more sensitive to people around them and everything more generally, and so there is a correlation between sensitivity and awakening. Um, you know, even just from a scientific perspective, from the paper that we've just you know released, um, trait absorption is also correlated with sensitivity, and we've seen there that um trait absorption is a predictor of the experience. So, you know, we can deduce that perhaps sensitivity is conducive to those experiences as well. Um, and certainly that the experience then leads to heightened sensitivities and in some cases extrasensory sensitivities as well.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

And I think you've touched upon it already, but would you be able to say a bit more about how we can support or help those who are sensitive who are going through perhaps the difficult stages of awakening and if they don't really know what to do with that experience? Do you have any advice or resources that you would point people towards?

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yeah, absolutely. Um, there's a number of uh organizations that are kind of uh looking to help people undergoing either stressful awakening experiences or you know, even positive experiences where people just feel like they need validation and peer support and um and a safe space um to express their newly found kind of insights. Um, and those are so for spiritual crises or emergencies or difficult experiences overall, um, you know, the spiritual crisis network is really useful um to get in touch with. Um, there's the international spiritual emergence network as well. Um, Emerging Proud are a fantastic organization that use storytelling to uh kind of bring these experiences to a wider audience and also to um encourage uh peer support and validation. Um and then, well, there really are a number of if you're based in the US, a really good one is the American Center for the Integration of Spiritually Transformative Experiences. And what I would say is, yeah, if you want to get in touch with them and you need um, you know, one-to-one support, ask for a transpersonal psychologist. So they're usually psychologists who are specialized um uh in these kinds of experiences, and often they've had an experience of a spiritual, a spiritually transformative experience themselves. So not only are they you know well trained to deal with these uh kind of psycho-spiritual states, extreme psycho-spiritual states, but often they've actually had the experience themselves and so are um you know able to treat people in a non-judgmental and in a very neutral kind of uh environment um and validating environment. So that's good.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Um and yeah, I would say those are the best resources. Yeah, brilliant. And again, I'll put those links in the show notes for people to access because I do think it is so important. Uh, you know, a big part of this is having community and this sense of knowing that you're not alone in this experience. And there are, it's amazing actually, when you start talking about this topic, how many people can relate to it? I don't know what the statistics are, but there's an unbelievable number of people who have had spiritual awakening experiences, but like you alluded to earlier, they don't really get spoken about or they get suppressed. So I think, yeah, being able to connect with these networks is really, really valuable.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Totally. Um, and I I wanted to say that um there are also a lot of um sharing circles that could be useful for people. Um you know, often that's enough for people just to know that there is a community out there. Um and you can find those at any of the organizations mentioned. And also there's an organization called Spiritual Awakenings International that organise monthly uh meetups for people all around the world. Um, so yeah, those are also really, really great spaces to find your peers and even find a buddy that you can turn to when things get a little too intense, um, as they can, they can get. And I also wanted to say that, yeah, the the experience almost likens to um you know the LGBTQ coming out of the closet type thing. Yeah, um, more people than we think have these experiences. You know, I don't know, we nobody really knows the statistics. And um, again, since they're so stigmatized in in this society and and particularly in more conservative societies, actually, um people don't tend to talk about them, but I'm sure that they occur in you know much more frequently than we do, uh than we think, whether spontaneously or induced through things like psychedelics. Um so yeah, it's um yeah, what was I saying?

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Basically that yeah, just having that support is really important, and even if it's joining a sharing circle once a month, that can have a huge impact.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

And um, again, I I feel we've already spoken about this, uh, but why why do you think you know this research and and the research that you're doing and continuing to do is so so important in the world that we live in now?

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Well, I think um, as we've seen, you know, the experience can be negative, but it can also be positive. Um, the experience often leads people to becoming more in touch with their surroundings, with other people. It leads to an increased sense of trust, um, well-being, um sense of empathy, um, compassion, uh, feelings of connection generally to people, to animals, to nature. And I think these are all qualities that are so desperately needed in the world at the moment. And if the better we can support those experiences when they arise, but also the better we can develop tools that might facilitate the safe kind of unleashing of these experiences, or at least spiritual experiences more generally. Um you know, the this might sound idealistic, but I'm a very idealistic person. I think that's how people should live their realities. But, you know, the the better we can facilitate this kind of paradigm shift that we might be going through at the moment, um, which can either lead us in in the worst possible way or in the in a in a in the best possible way, which is um, you know, more united and compassionate and beautiful world. And I think these experiences really do uh lead each individual in that direction. And therefore, if we take that on a more global scale and were to encourage people to have these experiences in a safe manner, then um then you know um more people would have them and perhaps the world would go in a better direction. Um but again, you know, it's yeah, it can go, it can go either way.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah, definitely. And what you're saying reminds me of the importance of integration. So something I've noticed is, and again, I don't know the statistics, but I've noticed that more people are engaging in uh the use of psychedelics and spiritual practices. Um, it seems like these practices are becoming more mainstream, and um, you know, as a as an example, going on an ayahuasca retreat that seems to be much more common these days than it used to be. And as you've pointed out, that can elicit a spiritual awakening experience. But my question is, then how do people integrate that into their day-to-day lives? How does that become a long-lasting shift in a person rather than you know a temporary experience? And um, you were talking about safety and how to help people navigate their experiences in a yeah, more constructive way. So, yeah, do you have anything to add or say about that?

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Um I would say that yeah, of course, integration is integral to these to safe unleashing of these experiences. Um and it's something that absolutely needs to be considered by those who have the experience. But in order for them to know that integration is so important, it's important for you know us to be having more of these conversations and sharing more of our research and and and more of our kind of experiences, um, you know, to be able so that we are able to point people in the right direction um in as to what to do. Um, and like I said, you know, finding a peer peer support group, um, speaking about these experiences openly when you feel comfortable to do so, um, and uh going, you know, going easy on yourself. If the experience is too much, then cease spiritual kind of contemplative practices, um, eat more grounding foods, so um, you know, a diet that is more um uh integral and and full of you know pulses and heavy, heavy kind of foods. Um there's lots of ways to help integrate the experience um and yeah, so but um but I think what's most important is to train clinicians to to better deal with the experience um when it's presented to them in you know in the psychological setting. Because at the moment, you know, people go to a clinician and they might not really receive the help that they need. If anything, it can lead to further trauma if they're prescribed medication. Treat something that is perfectly normal to feel unbalanced about, but that we know now if it's treated with respect and with um kind of mutual understanding and and supported in a way that is integrative, then it can lead us to you know great, great places mentally and physically.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah, I I definitely agree with that, and I think that's where the value of transpersonal therapists or transpersonal coaches come in, as you mentioned earlier, having someone who um understands these experiences and acknowledges them instead of um again suppressing or denying them.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

So I ask all of my uh guests this question do you have a favorite book or quote or anything you'd like to share with the listeners today? Um I have so many.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

I love yeah, and I love uh poetry and quotes and all of that stuff. Um off the top of my head, and and for the purpose of this particular chat, I think that you know, anything by Alan Watts is fantastic. He's my favorite person in the world. Um yeah, I agree. Um, and I'm sure many of your listeners um will already have read many of his books, but um, the book uh on the taboo of knowing who you really are. I think that's the full title of Colin Watts's book, is I think it's the first one I picked up after my experience, and it's where I felt I felt so safely held in a space, even though he's obviously dead and no longer with us. But I felt he fully like he fully understood me, and he had obviously had that kind of experience. So that book is the book, and it's um the um there's there's a few other The Way of Zen is is wonderful by Ellen Watts, also um The Wisdom of Insecurity, and then um Aldous Huxley, The Island is is incredibly beautiful and it touches on these kinds of subjects. And then more contemporary books that I would highly recommend are Jules Evans's Art of Losing Control. That one's really, really fantastic. It's very well written and it's very kind of comprehensive, even to those who have never had these experiences. Um, and it talks about just a you know a variety of different ecstatic experiences. Um, and then also The Leap by Steve Taylor, who's a this kind of research. Um, yeah, I would highly recommend all of those books, but you know, there are infinite amounts of others I could recommend. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Yeah, brilliant. Thank you. I think they're all fantastic books. Um yeah, Steve, Steve Taylor is uh a big inspiration of mine and Alan Watts as well. So I will put the links to those books in the show notes as well for people to access. Plenty of reading there for people who are interested. Um so thank you so much for um being a guest on the podcast today. It's been really insightful talking to you. And I I really think this conversation in itself can help a lot of people in just opening up that dialogue and allowing people to know it is okay to talk about these experiences. And if they're going through a difficult time, um, like we said, we'll we'll put the links to the networks they can access and getting the support they need as well. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Thank you, Jules. It's been really great uh speaking with you.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Thanks for joining me this week on Highly Sensitive Humans. Make sure to visit my website, HighlySensitiveHumans.com, where you can subscribe to the show and find out more about my upcoming workshops, my online eight-week course, and where I also offer one-to-one coaching for highly sensitive people. And if you found value in the show today, I'd really appreciate a rating. Or if you'd simply share this episode with your friends or other highly sensitive people that would help support this podcast!