Exploring the 'No More Mr. Nice Guy Syndrome' & High Sensitivity in Men

In this episode, I talk to men’s coach and workshop facilitator Rowan Andrews, founder of the UK-based No More Mr Nice Guy Men’s Group. We explore the connection between High Sensitivity and the traits of the 'Nice Guy Syndrome'. We discuss how these tendencies can show up in relationships and explore the topics of sexuality, spirituality and stepping into our authenticity.

About Rowan Andrews...
Rowan is the founder of the No More Mr Nice Guy Men’s Group with over 2,500 members, one of the largest men’s groups in the UK. He is also the creator of the No More Mr. Nice Guy Breaking Free Bootcamp, probably the most powerful workshop for accelerating men's recovery from the Nice Guy Syndrome in Europe, if not the world, endorsed by Dr Robert Glover, author of the classic men’s book No More Mr Nice Guy. He set the group up following a career as a business coach and running a PR and marketing business in the early 2000s.

He has been involved in personal development work for over 20 years but it was after his divorce from his long term partner that prompted him to embark on a further journey of self-discovery, this time about his own Nice Guy tendencies which the separation had exposed, exploring his patterns in relationships, his sexuality and his purpose and direction in life. This culminated in him setting up the Men’s Group in 2017. He lives in Oxfordshire and has two grown-up children.

Stay in touch with Rowan Andrews:

Website: https://nomoremrniceguy.co/
No More Mr Nice Guy MeetUp Group, London: https://www.meetup.com/Mens-group-NoMoreMrNiceGuy-UK/

Other Resources mentioned!

Quiet by Susan Cain, Facing Love Addiction, by Pia Mellody, Attached, by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller, The Way of the Superior Man, David Deida

More about your host, Jules De Vitto...

Jules is a transpersonal orientated coach and educator who is experienced at helping Highly Sensitive People overcome anxiety, stress and burnout.

Jules is Highly Sensitive herself and is passionate about helping Highly Sensitive People to step into their authentic power and live in alignment with their true purpose. She lived in Asia for eleven years before moving to London and integrates Eastern practices and modern-day mindfulness into her work.

She has a degree in Psychology, an MA in Education and an MSc in Transpersonal Psychology, Consciousness and Spirituality. She’s a published author through Changemaker Books and John Hunt Publishers and wrote Resilience: Navigating Loss in a Time of Crisis to help people through the Covid-19 Pandemic available here.

You can stay connected with Jules through her...
 
 Website: https://www.highlysensitivehumans.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/highly.sensitive.humans/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/highlysensitivehumans

Join the 8-week course, 'Step into your Authentic Power as a Highly Sensitive Person' starts October 4th 2021, and is limited to 20 people! Join now!

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome, I'm your host, Jules DeVito, and you're listening to the Highly Sensitive Human Podcast. The show that offers an insight into the world of the highly sensitive person and helps those who identify with the traits of high sensitivity to feel more empowered and resilient without denying their authentic gifts. Rowan is the founder of the No More Mr. Nice Guy Men's Group in the UK with over 2,500 members. Also creator of the No More Mr. Nice Guy Breaking Free Bootcamp, probably the most powerful workshop in Europe, if not the world, for helping men recover from being nice guys, and also endorsed by Dr. Robert Glover, author of the classic men's book No More Mr. Nice Guy. Set the group up following a career as a business coach and running a PR and marketing business in the early 2000s. After his divorce from his partner of 17 years, he went on a journey of self-discovery about his own nice guy tendencies, which the separation had exposed. Exploring his patterns in relationships, his sexuality, and his purpose and direction in life, which culminated in him setting up the men's group in 2017. Now lives in Oxfordshire and has two grown-up children. Welcome Rowan and thank you for joining me today on the Highly Sensitive Human Podcast. So I'm wondering if you could share a little bit more about your work and in particular the work you do with the No More Mr. Nice Guy men's groups.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

Sure. Well, great to be here, Jules, and uh thank you for inviting me on. So um yeah, I run a group called No More Mr. Nice Guy. It's the um it's a UK-based group, it's uh although it does um uh have men from over Europe and uh often from the st United States as well, and in fact elsewhere all over the world, but it's predominantly a UK group, and um it's for men who identify as nice guys, and the nice guy is uh somebody that um well is a people pleaser and um is somebody who kind of puts other people's needs first before their own. Uh somebody who perhaps is uh in a codependent relationship or tends to get into codependent relationships, um somebody who uh finds it difficult to set boundaries and and say no. And this is a very kind of typical of we probably all have it, we probably all have some level of the nice guy. And it's a definition that was created by a guy called Dr. Robert Glover, a psychotherapist uh uh from the States who wrote a book called No Well Mr. Nice Guy. So it it's uh this is a kind of live group that um is in honor of the book or inspired by the book, let's say. And um yeah, we we run men's groups where men can come along and just share what's going on for them and how their nice guy is showing up for them in their lives and be heard by other men and perhaps get a little bit of coaching from me or or feedback from other men that helps them get an another further insight into the patterns that uh they might have that are dysfunctional in their lives or that are creating outcomes that they wouldn't want. And um so those uh are very valuable for the men that that come along, the the men's groups. Plus, uh we run a boot camp, so it's we call it a boot camp, it's a two-day weekend workshop that helps men accelerate their recovery from the nice guy. It's um very powerful workshop, and uh it's endorsed by Dr Dr. Glover, who wrote the book, and it's probably the most powerful workshop of its type in the world, certainly in Europe, um, because there are no other uh or very few other um workshops, no most of nice guy workshops that are very specifically for for nice guys, uh helping them recover. So it's a very powerful thing. And uh and also I work one-to-one with men who want to become better versions of themselves and uh break through and transcend these kinds of patterns that we're talking about. And these these are patterns that are very, very dysfunctional, can be very, very dysfunctional in men's lives, you know, caused by problems with relationships and they cause problems in their careers where they can't really advance in their careers, and uh basically the nice guy can cause a lot of pain in in men's lives. So that's what we exist to uh address.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Brilliant. Thank you for sharing that. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what inspires you or drives you to do the work you do. So also you mentioned in your introduction that you had a journey of self-discovery. You mentioned that when you uh divorced from your partner, you went on this this long journey. And I'm wondering if that has been a catalyst for the work you do today and how that inspires you to help the men you've spoken about.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

Yes, definitely. Um I've always been, I mean, I've been into personal development and you know, my personal journey for over 20 years now, but I'd never really looked at this aspect of myself before, this this nice guy, uh persona, let's say. So when I when my relationship, my marriage came to an end, um it prompted me to take a good hard look at myself and how how I showed up in our relationship. And I'd never really explored that before. So that was eye-opening, and um through feedback from from my wife, uh, through that divorce process, uh, you know, I got to see how what a nice guy I'd I'd been in that relationship. And I read the book, um, and it was you know, it was kind of almost made me sick to read it because I saw myself in it so so viv vividly. And um I realized also that there was something about my own sexuality uh that I'd never really explored fully that seemed to have some bearing on what had played out in our relationship. Um and that was a big eye-opener for me because I think that particularly for nice guys, sexuality is one of the um the areas, very you know, very much one of the areas in which the nice guy shows up. And um that can cause all sorts of problems in relationships when you know men are you know being nice guys uh in in the sort of sexual context and um not really satisfying their their partner when they when they do that. So that when that was a breakthrough for me to see that. Um so uh that's what that was the inspiration, let's say, was the breakup from my marriage where I got to examine myself um in in ways that I hadn't done before. That's certainly the inspiration because it was so painful to do that. You know, I really thought that we were together forever. And uh however misguided that might sound now, it does when I it sounds misguided when I say it now, but at the time I was living in this family bubble. We had two teenage children, we lived in the country, we had this kind of idyllic life in a way. Um we had a beautiful home with beautiful garden and sort of stream running down the end of it, chickens running about the garden, and then suddenly it all came to an end when um she basically decided that that it was over. And that it was like the yeah, it was like my world fell apart. Um so it was a very painful experience, particularly as our kids were were teenagers as well, and I wanted to uh be a father together in a family with them uh until at least they were 18, and uh that suddenly all fell apart. So it was um quite a dramatic thing and and for me in my life at that time. And uh that's that pain I think was the thing that really has driven me to do this work with other men because I see so much of that pain in other men's lives. And some men come to me because they've gone through a similar experience to to mine, but others that uh are having other kinds of experiences in their relationships or or through their careers, and you know that they're struggling and suffering in so many ways, and it it's that desire to kind of help these guys in the way that I've managed to liberate myself from those kinds of patterns, old old patterns, that um not that that uh is uh is is journey is complete, but uh I've come a long way from where I was, um, and it's that that drives me on to help other guys that I see are are struggling in their own lives. It's a rather long answer to a short question. I hope that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Yeah, no, thank you so much for sharing that. And um I think it's yeah, really profound. And you mentioned the pain you went through being what has driven you to really help others, and I think it's only by us going through these experiences that we can really step into that place of being able to guide others through these experiences. Um, and I was actually wondering if you might be able to give a specific example of a lesson that you learned through this journey because you've mentioned the pain and the problems that nice guys can experience, um, specifically in terms of sexuality. And I don't know if you have um a specific example of how yeah, those traits or those patterns might play out.

SPEAKER_04 10:53

Yeah, absolutely. Well, those patterns played out for me in the sense that in in the way that sex became a kind of transactional process, like you know, I'll give you your orgasm if you give me mine, kind kind of thing, uh that's that sort of approach. And also that the that sex itself became a um something of a validation mechanism. So if you have sex with me, then I will feel validated about myself. And does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

Yeah, so so that is a very unsexy way of having sex. Uh that that sex is kind of charged in that way with some neediness, uh, some need to be validated. And I can certainly recognize that for myself, that that was absolutely showing up in in the way I related with my wife. And um that's pretty disgusting to see that. And actually to then discover that there's something way more interesting available between people you know having sex where there is no need for validation. It's not about validation, there's somewhere, it's something else, you know, it's an energetic exchange and or an even spiritual kind of journey together. It's a way more interesting way of having sex than from this kind of needy place that that is like saying, you know, please have sex with me because then I'll be okay, then I'll feel better about myself, um, which is utterly un you know unattractive. So it's going to kill any sexual attraction in a relationship. And I see men playing this out all the time. In in my groups, they they talk about this, and what I see is that they're kind of need need for validation. And we have to be able to validate ourselves. We have, and that's part of the journey of this work we do in No More Mr. Nice Guy, is to be able to self-validate and heal all the wounds that we've and traumas and past, you know, wounds from our kind of past experiences, whatever those might be for each individual man. But we need to really work on those in order to go beyond them and not have them play out in our relationships, whether those relationships are romantic, you know, relationships or relationships with people at work, for example, or in our careers, or you know, the way we relate to life itself. If we can heal those wounds and self-validate, you know, feel good enough about ourselves, um, then we're not projecting that onto other people. We're not projecting a need for validation onto other people, and that's a much healthier way of living.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I feel what you've just spoken about is such an important conversation for us to be having because for some reason it feels, from my perspective, anyway, that society or the culture we live in doesn't encourage us to be having these conversations. And for some reason, um, talking about sexuality or sex is repressed in some way, and then it does become this transactional um kind of mindset, and the energetic or the spiritual side of it is neglected. Um, so it's interesting that you've brought that up.

SPEAKER_04 14:26

Yeah, well, it's interesting because you know, sex is such an important part of our lives. You know, if I talk to a man in my group, for example, to what are the most three, the three most important things in your life? It's like their their work and career, their relationship and their sex. There's not much else going on that that is of interest, certainly to men, probably to women as well. You know, it's a fundamentally important part of our life. And and what do we how do we learn about it? We don't get taught about it at school, other than how to put a condom on a cucumber or something, is about as far as sex education goes. So we're not learning this stuff from anyone. It's the same with uh money. Money is a big area of our lives, money is something we all have to be able to manage and handle in our lives, but we don't learn about that, how to do that at school either. We don't learn how to have relationships and how to have healthy relationships. So these are fundament these things are fundamentally missing in our in our culture. And I think that the problem is with the private sector providing solutions to this, you know, you get in men's work, for example, you'll get men who are offering the solution to every man's problem, you know, and it's it's kind of all about you know, do this and do that, you know, work out at the gym more, um, you know, learn the techniques of chatting up women, uh, you know, all these kinds of strategies and techniques that keep men even more in their heads trying to work out solutions to the pain of their experience. And the only solution actually is to feel the pain, is actually to feel more rather than to do more or think more, think better, think differently. It's it's less about that and it's more about feeling. And I think that's a huge missing in the way that we address these kinds of problems that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Yeah, thank you. And I definitely resonate with what you have just shared and talking about feeling the pain. Obviously, this podcast is about the highly sensitive person. So, from what you know and what we have spoken about, I'm wondering if you consider yourself to be a highly sensitive person and how the areas we've just discussed, how they might relate to being highly sensitive from your perspective.

SPEAKER_04 16:55

Yes. Well, I think I'm a way less sensitive person than than I was, or certainly less sensitive, like I I don't get upset so easily as I used to. I think I'm sensitive in the way that I can feel other people's energy quite probably better than most, and I'm a coach, and that's probably why I'm a coach, is because I'm probably better at that than other people, than most most other people. Um and so it's a gift, but uh it used to hold me back a hell of a lot, that that sensitivity, and it's only through really this um working on myself and you know going through therapy and all of those kinds of things, doing all sorts of workshops and breaking through these barriers that we're talking about around sexuality and the and relationships and so on, that I've really started to understand how my own sensitivity limited me, and also to be able to allow my sensitivity to be there and not have it limit me in what I do or say or how I behave. But it certainly used to as a younger man and as a kid. It was very painful actually to be so sensitive at school, for example. Um, you know, and somebody would talk to me in class, like the teacher might literally look at me and I would turn bright red immediately. Um, you know, I couldn't really open my mouth and speak uh in a conversation of more than with with more than one other person without feeling, you know, this is great discomfort and sensitivity around what others might think of me or and what I might might say and all these sorts of things. So it took me a long time to uh to get over that. Even in my career, I it was very difficult. Uh I started out in public relations and uh PR, and I was expected to kind of advise clients in meetings on strategy and so on. And um I was terrified of opening my mouth and then getting some attention my way, um, and would always go bright red. I just had to go and do it, but I would was always I would literally sweat. And you know, the the heat in my body would just rise and rise, and it would leave me sweating. So I'd uh you know, it felt terrible to to be in those situations. But that was I I would say that that was the the kind of pain of of the sensitivity, but um now I don't really seem to have that that problem, and I think that's been because I've managed to address a lot of the things that uh that were hidden about myself, that that perhaps I had shame about, shame for being myself. I think that sensitivity was kind of rooted in in that in some way. And I find that with a lot of the men that I work with is that it's not so much their sensitivity, I mean they are very sensitive. Um where that sensitivity shows up is often in in relationships where they're very sensitive to what their partner, things that their partner might say to them, um that might suggest that they're might come across as a criticism, for example, and uh they can be very sensitive and angry in response because it's painful to hear a criticism from your partner apparently you know, for most guys. But once we learn to actually be okay with that and hear it for what it is and not make it mean anything about us, then I think we start to be able to transcend that sensitivity and and not have it kind of limit us in life.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Yeah, brilliant. So I was actually gonna ask you how you turned sensitivity from a limitation into it sounds like something which you accept and even feel empowered by. Um, but I think you answered the question in saying that it's really about addressing the shame that you used to feel and really stepping into your authenticity in terms of yeah, finding acceptance for who you are and not feeling that you need to hide parts of yourself. Would you say that's correct? And is that something you also see in the men that you work with?

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Yes, very much so. And um it's been you know, it it is a journey, and and my my sense to be is still there. And as I said, I I do love it actually, but sometimes it's still I still will you know speak and go and go go red, but now it's okay, I can live with that, I I can be with that, it's fine. With other men that I work with, with men that I work with, um we yes, we we work. on that sensitivity because it is that sensitivity is does seem to be there because there is some kind of toxic shame. The other word for that we call we we call it um pathogenic belief. It's like a it's like a core belief about ourselves that that we all have a version of that to some extent not just nice guys all of us humanity has has this that we have through our conditioning developed some kind of idea of who we are and and a belief about who we are in the world and that tends to be a negative belief that that you know that that in comparison to the big old scary old world out there that we're somehow not enough in some form we're maybe not worthy we're not lovable or we're not good enough. And that's that's the kind of toxic shame that I'm talking about and and unless we can go through the process of of revealing that for for people and understand and having them understand that actually that is a falsehood. It's just a created thought it's just a thought an idea that we create at some point usually in early childhood through our experience and and particularly through negative experiences in life which we all have at some level it's only by going through that that we can really begin to expose it and put bring the light to it you know bring the light of awareness to that and in so doing we can start to transcend it and actually like like you say start to love it. Start to love that we have that that shame there you know that it's actually just part of us and it's okay. It's not the truth it's just it's just part of our conditioning.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

It's a very liberating um way of of being again I can relate so much to that in terms of my own experience and also from working with highly sensitive people I think it's so common for those who are highly sensitive to also feel that it's not okay for for them to be who they are. And like you mentioned since we're young children and it seems like we're conditioned into having to fit into a certain box or way of being and that might be being very extroverted or being very confident or yeah having this kind of tough exterior that we display to the outside world. And I think it's those like you yeah you mentioned beliefs that are instilled into us from a young age that cause us to feel that we have to somehow deny the truth of who we are. And I know that I have also been on this journey in terms of trying to embrace my authenticity and know it's okay for example to be more introverted than extroverted and I can't remember if last time we spoke we mentioned the book Quiet by Susan Kane have you come across that book yeah we we did that's I've read that book yeah that was such a liberation to read that book and and feel heard feel as ah somebody understands me.

SPEAKER_04 25:29

Because you know I've I've always thought that introversion is a bad thing because the world seems to love extroverts so much extroverts are so so much more rewarded in in life than introverts but uh so it was a relief to read this book and to feel it it's okay I it's okay to be an introvert.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Yeah absolutely and I'm just wondering if you have a specific resource or tool that you could perhaps offer to the people listening today um it might be a tool for men to help them access or shift these core beliefs you spoke about or if there's something yeah you can provide in that that's been helpful for you.

SPEAKER_04 26:14

Yeah well I think um I would suggest to men to come to our boot camp with the nice guy breaking free boot camp where we do this work to expose the core beliefs and as well as other work that's part of what we do it's an intrinsic part of what we do and it it is liberating it makes this weekend so powerful so I would recommend that for men but but basically just to kind of give a tool is as you say is it's about understanding and really living from the understanding that we are not our thoughts and feelings. You know we're so much more than that you know we are this you know we are all connected this is all one consciousness playing itself out here in in life and who we are is um you know this aware loving beings underneath all our layers of conditioning you know we're conscious connected loving open accepting you know beings and I think that's in my experience been found to be a universal truth about humanity however you know we think we are some kind of separate entity from all of that that has to survive in this scary old world and uh that we have our thoughts and feelings that are ours and you know exist in this body not else elsewhere and actually I want to encourage people to consider that actually we are not that we are not those thoughts and feelings they're just thoughts and feelings they don't define who we are or what's possible for us in life. So that's that would be my uh tip to guys is to remember is to remember that and really really know it.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah absolutely and I also bring that teaching into the work I do I work from a very spiritual perspective and that idea that we are not our thoughts I mean it's so simple but it's so profound. And this is quite a big question but I'm wondering if you could suggest how do we actually go about connecting to that expansive collective consciousness? How do we embody that and live that on a daily basis because I know for myself I believe that to be true and I experience it. For example in meditation I experience that um connection to something beyond my ego but actually living it and embodying it especially in relationships I can say that I do struggle and I very easily slip back into being consumed by my thoughts um and there's more limiting beliefs.

SPEAKER_04 29:23

So do you have any specific technique that people can use to embody that in their day-to-day life yeah well I think there's this probably two things and one is to is to just really practice getting super aware of those thoughts so as soon as you notice yourself stuck in circular thoughts or or thoughts that are just going round and round and round same old same old nonsense as soon as you notice those thoughts just take a breath and relax and notice them and allow just allow them to be don't try and not have the thoughts just allow them but don't attach to them so kind of in in that process we get to defuse ourselves from the thoughts and you can always write these things down a great way of doing this is to write down the thoughts if you find yourself ruminating with lots of different thoughts particularly thoughts about about yourself oneself um then write them down and um read them out to yourself and you do that as a practice they soon once you start reading them out to yourself and you could put on a funny voice or something to read them out it they soon become you soon get to see how ridiculous they are and that actually these are not the truth they're just thoughts so that's one one practice the other thing is in meditation is is a is to develop a meditation practice. Now the problem I would that I I see in the popular the kind of popular meditation techniques and tools and apps and um teachings and so on is that it's very easy to think that one is meditating because one's sitting quietly maybe on a um a yoga cushion a meditation cushion cross legged and you know maybe touching the the thumb and forefinger or something and if I if I do that for 10 minutes then I will be meditating that will be you know that's me being a meditator um you know um the problem with that is often people will they don't really know how to meditate and they'll sit there and they're sitting there for their 10 minute session just thinking loads of thoughts actually you know just just lots of thoughts bubbling away and you know the the real skill to develop is to become very very aware of sensation in the body. Now again with sort of people that aren't so experienced in in this or who think they're meditating they will often feel their sensations in the body and then have a thought that describes that sensation. So oh I'm they might be feeling sensation of um tingling in the belly for example but it would be like the description will be something like oh I'm feeling this pressure in my in my belly I'm feeling nauseous. I'm gonna you know I'm feeling sick in my belly or something ah this must be because I'm nervous I'm scared of um what's going on in my life right now or whatever it is and so automatically you know it's very easy to automatically drop into this thinking again and this kind of trying to well uh think through what the sensations are and what they might mean. And I want to encourage I encourage people not to do that but just to sit with the sensations themselves and notice if they start to try and create some kind of um uh dialogue about it or some kind of uh interpretation or analysis about it which immediately is basically a bunch of thoughts so we want to let go of those thoughts allow them just observe them but then go back into the sensation and just feel the sensation and just keep doing that and wherever your attention is drawn to in the body wherever you experience sensation go go into that put your attention on that and see if you can just experience the experience rather than have some kind of narration or dialogue or or analysis going on about it. You know that that will help to allow energy to move through the body without getting stuck in the head in thought or meaning because it doesn't really need it doesn't need to mean anything none of this means anything. This is just the this is just how life is you know it's it's basically energy moving through through us you know one minute to the next and all these feelings and sensations move you know they change they don't stay the same they're constantly changing. So if we can sit with those experiences and if you and and that that's the practice of meditation now if you take that into a practical situation of somebody who might be struggling in a relationship and their partner let's take an a a guy his partner says something um uh snacky to him or or whatever it is or you shouldn't do this or you shouldn't do that and where he would normally get triggered and get angry because he would feel some kind of um opinion about him being expressed or criticism about him being expressed if you if we can practice noticing the sensations in our body we can more easily deal with the sensations and emotions that might come up when we're being criticized by our partners and rather than reacting angrily from you know to to that is just be able to acknowledge it. Ah right you think that okay that's fine what would you like me to do you know rather than coming at it from how dare you speak to me like that nobody should speak to me like that or or whatever. And these things you know if we can practice that meditation can really help with that.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Yeah thank you there's a couple of things you shared there which I think is so important and the first one is that misconception about mindfulness and meditation that it's about uh denying the thoughts or not having thoughts and what you were saying was we have those thoughts anyway those beliefs the narrative the story it's going to come up but it's about um actually staying with it observing it and being compassionate towards it as well it's not trying to push push the thoughts away or not have them or deny them. And I think that's so important for people to yeah become aware of because I do sometimes come across people who think that mindfulness or meditation is like you mentioned that stereotypical sitting down on a cushion legs crossed and not having any thoughts not having emotions and obviously that's not the case. And then the second thing was yeah really about staying present with the sensations in the body and the energy and yeah that's so powerful and I know again from my personal experience this is something I'm still practicing. You know when I feel triggered or I feel a strong reaction come up I do really try and stay present with where that is in my body but I still have the narrative I still have the story but it's really learning to observe that and let go of yes yeah just observe it and it will reduce it will it will go away you know those those start to those thoughts start to go away start to disappear so yeah thank you that's really really helpful advice and I'm wondering we mentioned Quiet by Susan Kane as a great book I know it's been it's had an impact for both of us are there any other books or yeah any resources you've come across that you would recommend to people listening today yeah I think that for particularly as I work with nice guys but also for women listening today if you want to if you're struggling in your relationship in particular have a look at um facing love addiction I think it's by Pia Melody there are two right authors in this sphere Pia Melody and Melody Beatty and I always get them confused because they've both got the same Melody in them but I'm pretty sure it's Pia Melody who wrote Facing Love Addiction and that is a really great book to understand these kinds some of these kind of patterns that show up in relationship and why they might be might be there.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

Another book is Attached which is by uh I think it's uh a guy called um Amir Levine I think um two people wrote that book anyway it's called attached and it's a very good book to understand uh attachment types and attachment styles so it's a good way of understanding how we relate with others and the typical kind of patterns that we are likely to fall into based on the style that we are that that we have and it's so it's very insightful to be able to read these books to be able to understand one's own relationship better and and transcend the kinds of patterns that might be showing up in it that are that are dysfunctional. So I definitely recommend those two those two books. Another book for men one one last book is uh The Way of the superior man by David Dada. Okay uh it's about 20 years old now uh but it's a it's a great book about understanding the differences between the masculine and feminine we all have that energy that energy in us masculine and feminine energy and he articulates the differences extremely well and uh and it's really a sort of first step on a spiritual understanding more of a spiritual living spiritual life.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Brilliant that sounds really interesting um yeah those are great books and I will put the details of those books in the show notes so people can access them. Attached is a brilliant book I've actually read that myself talking about attachment styles I would definitely recommend that as well and you just mentioned about the did you say the way of the superior man.

SPEAKER_04 40:10

Man okay yeah so you're talking about the masculine and the feminine energies could you perhaps speak a little bit more about that yeah so his his idea and is I mean he's not he didn't originate this idea it's uh you know you could go back to uh tantric uh and Buddhist texts uh that talk about this and all sorts of other sources but the idea is that all of us whether we are a man or a woman have masculine and feminine energy in us. Now when we're in a relationship with a member of the opposite sex we need you know in order for that the spark of attraction to really be alive in that relationship we need to have the right balance of masculine and feminine energy in it. So one partner needs to be more masculine and another partner needs to be more feminine the problem is in modern relationships is that often those differences become blurred especially when women are perhaps going out and and having careers where they have to be more in their masculine and men are you know being stay at home dads or or whatever or or just simply because of their upbringing we are the the the the lines and the the kind of limit or limits or definitions of the masculine and feminine are getting blurred and that leads to a kind of neutralization of energy. So that that spark of attraction starts to disappear in relationships. So unless we can get conscious of it and start to practice ways of enhancing the difference so with one partner being more in their masculine the other partner more in their feminine unless we can really do that then relationships are going to be quite difficult to sustain over a long period so that that's really what he's talking about David Dada.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Yeah thank you and I find that so interesting um because from my experience it does seem like it is becoming more blur blurred. The um the masculine and the feminine it seems that and you you can tell me from your experience with men but that for some reason women are striving to feel more empowered at the moment and men are also striving to feel more empowered and I believe that it's so important for both the masculine and the feminine to step into that empowerment and step into those energies like within ourselves and in relationship to others and as a society as a whole but for some reason it almost feels like there's some fear or um inability to fully step into those energies and we're not embracing what it means to be um to to step into the feminine or the masculine would would you say that's true?

SPEAKER_04 43:28

I absolutely agree with you and if you go to Sweden it's got to such a bad uh state that uh it it's so feminized that culture that men are really scared to kind of show up and you know I was working with a um a group and coaching a a a group of uh Swedish guys recently in Europe and they were telling me about their that culture their culture and lit literally they're they're just kind of fed up with it and uh you know it it's just uh they're just Description was it it's it's a feminized culture, and so men are kind of put down when they want to uh when they when they speak up at all, so they stop speaking up. And just to go back to your your point and your your question, I I totally agree with you, and I think that a big part of the problem is that men and women have been wounded by each other, we've wounded each other along the way. You know, if you you know uh women, in order to really be able to relax into their feminine and really really embody their true feminine essence, they have to be able to be held. They have to be able to trust whoever is holding them. And by being held, I mean the space being held for them, not necessarily physically being held, but the that that the space is held for them. Now so many women, most women that that I know have not always had great experiences with men in their lives. And so why, you know, the if they're expected to trust a guy, well, why would you do that if you've had bad experiences with guys in in the past? And the same for for men. You know, men have been let down by women, they've um they've been uh mistreated by women. I mean, most guys I I know have probably had a bad you know have had bad experiences with women, whether that's in relationships where they've been kind of let down or um or or you know they can't can't trust the woman. So that you know there's there's kind of anger and resentment on both sides, I think. Uh but whether that's the case or not, there is a what the legacy of that is that there is a lack of trust. And so unless we can address the wounds that sit behind all of those emotions, then we can't really heal the trust and you know or or address the trust that needs to be addressed in order to enable men to fully embrace their masculine and women to fully embrace their feminine. So again, that's why I do the work I do is I I want to I want to heal those wounds and bring men and women together in trust and love.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Yeah, I love this so much. And as you were talking, what came to me was this idea that the empowerment of the masculine means the suppression of the feminine, or the empowerment of the feminine means the suppression of the masculine, as in that's the um it's like a polarization that's taking place, right? But instead, we need to come together and find that union and that trust between the two polarities.

SPEAKER_04 46:51

Absolutely, right? Absolutely, yeah. So we need to work together on this, and uh, but I do think that the the problem, and particularly for men at the moment, and kind of through my journey, I've been witness to this, is that the problem that men face around this is that they don't have direction in life. You know, most men, if you ask them, well, what are you up to in life? Well, uh I want a bigger house and a bigger car and uh you know, a bit more money, um but a better job and uh um a bit more sex in my life and you know, or a better relationship, or whatever it's you know, there's a little bit more of this and a little bit more of that. There's no real vision and and purpose in men's life, like this is what my life is about, this is where I'm heading in life, and this is why it's important to me. That that's a real lacking, it is purpose. The other thing I see is that men are kind of there's no potency to them, they're not really cutting through in the world. You know, they're um you know, well, nice guys getting stuck in middle management, as Dr. Glubber says in in his book. You know, they're getting lost there, they're not really cutting through what we need to cut through in order to build the kind of society we want. And in the UK, I think we're very stuck at the moment. Look at America, I mean they're they're gonna kind of going backwards. So there's no real potency to be able to make a stand for something and make a difference by making that stand, you know, really cut through um uh opinion and uh and um uh past ways of doing things in order to to cut through and build something new and valuable. There's very little of that for men. And the third thing is that men are totally distracted, you know, they're not connected, they're distracted by gaming, TV, alcohol, um, porn, uh caffeine. You know, we're all addicted to caffeine amongst many other uh sugar, many other addictions as well. And these all these things, you know, social media being another thing, all these things totally distract us from well, they disconnect us from ourselves. And what we were just talking about, about being in tune with the sensations in one's one's body, you know, men are stuck in their heads doing all of this stuff and uh uh trying to manage their own discomfort by indulging in these kinds of uh uh addictions. So uh and they're not really connected, so they're not connected to themselves, and they're not connected to anything bigger than themselves, and I think that's a big missing for men, probably women as well, but uh um as my work is uh around the area of men, I really see this uh playing itself out with men. So we've gotta we've got to have purpose, we've got to have potency, and uh we've got to be connected, and I think then we can start to address these these things and heal our ourselves and connect more and understand what we need in order to address the the problems between between men and women. And then I think we can start to work together and build it together.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

Yeah, thank you. It just feels so important, and like you mentioned, connecting with purpose and connecting with our our truth. It it feels yeah, again, I think it is true for men and women that there is so much to distract us these days, and it is all about us, yeah, disconnecting from ourselves, or it's um yeah, there's a focus on the superficial side of the material more of the material dimension and um how our life appears to be from the outside. But I can see yeah, a lot of emptiness in people. So things might appear to be, you know, that dream, dream job, car, house, uh, marriage, children, but on the inside, people are very, very disconnected.

SPEAKER_03 51:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

So we're coming very close to the end here, and I'm just wondering before we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to share? Any burning thoughts about what we've spoken about?

SPEAKER_03 51:19

No, I think I think we've covered everything that I would have thought we would want to. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Thank you so much. It's been a really great conversation. I've really enjoyed it. And I'm just wondering, is there somewhere listeners can go to find out more about your work or the resources that you've mentioned here today? Especially I was wondering about the boot camp. Do you have set dates for the boot camp? Or find out, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:50

Yeah, the next boot camp is October the 31st and November the 1st. So it's a weekend. It's in London. Okay. In Kensington in London, and I've just confirmed with the venue that we can uh manage to run the workshop with uh social distancing in place and uh you know fully in adherence with uh the appropriate measures, uh anti-COVID measures, so men can be uh can relax that actually uh it's safe. And uh so that's that weekend, October 31st, November 1st. We have men's groups every Thursday evening from 6 30 pm till 9 p.m. And those are online. So the place to find out about these is firstly go to nomormistrnice guy.co. So so nomormistrnice guy.co. And uh you can subscribe to a newsletter, the newsletter there, where you'll find out about these events. We also have a meetup group. So if you go to meetup.com and search no more mrnice UK, you'll find our group and uh you can apply to join all the events are listed there, you can register for them there as well. And um yeah, I think those those are probably the best places to go for one-to-one work with with me. Well, uh best to go through the website and you'll find my contact details in there.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

Great, thank you. And again, I'll list the website and the resources below so people can access that easily. So again, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 53:32

You're welcome. Absolute pleasure talking to you, Jules. Thank you for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

Thanks for joining me this week on Highly Sensitive Humans. Make sure to visit my website, highly sensitivehumans.com, where you can subscribe to the show and find out more about my upcoming workshops, my online eight-week course, and where I also offer one-to-one coaching for highly sensitive people. And if you found value in the show today, I'd really appreciate a rating. Or if you'd simply share this episode with your friends or other highly sensitive people that would help support this podcast!